Pretty sure no one knows the whole story yet.
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And again, this could go back to driving 65 in a 55 mph zone. Should the driver get their car impounded and license taken away or jailed? Driving over the speed limit can be dangerous, but please. If the driver was thrown in jail would you argue against legal intervention and that they were acting with privilege by committing the infraction? This seems so silly. This was either a significant overreaction by the campus or there is more to the story. In either instance the parents should be able to get basic information and should seek legal help if it is not forthcoming.
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I know I got downvoted when I said that the OP should think about what victory looks like, and the focus on how to achieve it. But the OP should think about what victory looks like, and the focus on how to achieve it.
No matter what the OP is saying, I can tell you what the university is hearing. The university is hearing “we demand information from you that we can use against you in a future legal action”. Are you surprised they are resisting? When a lawyer comes-a-knocking will this confirm or refute their position?
I’m not saying who is in the right and who is in the wrong here. I am merely saying what the university is thinking!
But they won’t tell me what he did wrong!
They did. Underage drinking, which he admitted to, and according to the student handbook, can result in suspension. The hearing either imposed or endorsed this. (I am presuming that this is in the student handbook)
But Bobby and Susie did it too and weren’t suspended! I have a right to see their disciplinary records!
No, you don’t. No university is going to release them.
And even if they did, how would you counter a university claim “we only caught the two”?
But the penalty is too harsh!
They will turn right around and say “but that’s what’s in the student handbook. You and your son knew this all ahead of time.” Then what are you going to do? Decades ago, one didn’t often see a student handbook until they were enrolled and on campus. Today it takes seconds to find one from any college. One cannot say “we didn’t know”. The closest one can get is “But we didn’t think you meant it.” That is unlikely to get you very far.
We have a lawyer!
Ever institution I have worked for, private, public, academic and non, has had the exact same policy. One does not talk to any lawyer outside the organization. Refer them to Legal, and tell them nothing. If they are entitled to know something, our Legal will get it from you and tell it to them.
Lawyers, being lawyers, will want to provide the minimum information. And that’s going to be “Underage drinking, which the student admitted to. The penalty was determined (or endorsed) by the tribunal.” It’s going to be very difficult to get any more than that out of them.
Finally, you don’t want the university to conclude that the son is more trouble than he’s worth. Does he have to be readmitted? Does he have to get on-campus housing? If one piece of paperwork is a hair off can they say “sorry…not this semester”? Can they allow they technically son to re-enroll but not into his previous major if it was controlled? (yes, this is a thing) Don’t think things can’t be made worse.
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The child of a friend was pulled over for speeding. Her family knew she should have a lawyer when she went to court. She was, of course, guilty, and she admitted to that. The outcome was a fine and points on her license. She was responsible for the fine, the cost of legal representation and the increase in insurance costs. Having a lawyer ensured that her case was handled appropriately. She had consequences.
Another young person I know was also pulled over for speeding… He did not know that he would be well served by counsel. He attended court by himself. He told the judge it was his first offense and asked if there could be any reduction in fine. The judge, known to be tough of speeders, instead decided to impose the original fine and points AND suspend his license for a month for “not recognizing the seriousness of his offense.”
In the second case, the young man would have been advised by counsel against making the request . Or would not have been held personally responsible for the request because counsel would have presented it differently on his behalf. What he learned was to have a lawyer if you go to court. (And going to court is mandatory for this kind of violation.)
I would like to think that if a person has a legal issue, the lesson might be to seek advice on how best to deal with it. Maybe your lawyer tells you to accept the charges. Maybe they tell you that accepting guilt for a different charge will be better for some reason. Or maybe they tell you that the whole process was flawed. Being informed and seeking expertise is not “being bailed out” or "avoiding consequences ". It is part of recovering from a poor choice, a mistake, or an accident-- something that happens to many of us at some point.
I never got the sense that the OP was trying to brush the whole thing under the rug bit to ensure that her DS’ punishment aligned with his error of judgment.
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underage drinking, littering, loitering, speeding- all minor offenses except when they’re not. I’m amazed at the number of posters here who have the benefit of omniscience in knowing exactly what went down. I sure don’t.
IRL I’ve got a neighbor who is complaining about some disciplinary action imposed on her kid at college who had an unregistered overnight guest. She’s furious. People have tried to point out to her that if it were her kid who lived next door and- god forbid- the guy who someone in the dorm just met at a bar and brought him home- was a sex offender and something horrible happened in the hallway or restroom, the fury at the university’s “lax” security policies would reach the sky.
This is how you run an institution. Spell out the policies. The students who like to pick up strangers in a bar are not going to be happy that they can’t bring said stranger to their dorm for the night without registering that stranger with security. Ok- but that’s how you keep the other 99 people in the dorm safe. Is the university draconian with their discipline for a first time offender? Maybe, but since there were three dorm meetings explaining the policy on having an overnight visitor who is not an enrolled student with a valid student ID- forwarned a bit?
I hope the OP is getting more information here so they can figure out the best way to move forward.
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Perhaps the actual lesson learned (whether or not it is the appropriate one) is not to admit fault, especially in writing, when faced with any disciplinary process.
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Agreed. In this entire narrative there is only one party with a full sense of context, history and the offensive action. That’s why the parent should first and foremost sit down with the kid and say we need to hear all of it. Not what others were doing but what did you do, have you gotten in trouble before, did you mouth off, how drunk were you etc…
If it were my kid every action would be driven by that discussion.
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I think perhaps you misunderstand of what lawyers do. On both sides.
At the very least, a competent attorney familiar with such situations will be able to offer more meaningful advice than the posters here.
For example, rather than making assumptions about what happened or what is in the student handbook, the attorney can talk to the son, review the school’s regulations and other pertinent information, then advise the student/parent whether it makes sense to pursue it. Believe it or not, most potentially adversarial situations are resolved before they start because an attorney knows that there is nothing to be achieved by pursuing the matter.
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Well, it was 25+ years ago but I have first hand experience with “drinking in public” at Fordham, though not underage drinking. I was present when NYPD gave citations to several people, over 21, who were drinking while walking down the street just off campus after a Homecoming football game. IIRC they had to go to court in the Bronx, but only had to pay a fine.
NYPD also occasionally busted the off campus bars where it was very easy to drink underage. I don’t recall anyone getting in trouble with the cops, but they would come in and check IDs and kick people out. And sometimes even close the bar down for the night, perhaps longer, I don’t really remember as it was a lonnnng time ago!
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Yes - but McAuley’s Tavern was the best college bar in America!
The trick was to drink at the cop bar on Webster Avenue - French Charlie’s. Right by the 52nd Precinct. I’m a little longer in the tooth but we never has problems in my day at Clarke’s Bar or the Bronx River Yacht Club (aka The Lantern). Cops would never dare to go into Mugz’s on Arthur Avenue given the owner’s LCN affiliation.
I have actually reviewed the handbooks for both my kids colleges and neither would include a punishment of suspension for a first time alcohol offense. I’m guessing either this is not a first time offense, or there is more to the story, so do understand why the parents are interested in obtaining the information from the school.
I’ll also state that I wish schools were even remotely as concerned about sexual assault as alcohol infractions. But those aren’t nearly as easy now are they.
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Unfortunately alcohol use and sexual assault often go hand in hand. Policing alcohol infractions may help curtail sexual assault.
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I agree 100,000%, but there is a fundamental difference. Almost all alcohol infractions are witnessed by the campus (or city) police. Virtually none of the sexual assaults are witnessed by the campus (or city) police.
By comparison, it would be like if a student went to a campus police officer and said “I saw Darcy drinking a beer last night. Go arrest Darcy.” If, when questioned by the authorities, Darcy denies drinking alcohol the previous night, it’s hard to proceed at that point.
Where I worked, students had the right to inspect their own academic records, but we kept disciplinary files separate from academic files. Academic files contained the bare minimum information if a student was separated for disciplinary reasons. I thought it was their legal right to review disciplinary files, but I was never asked for that by a student - so I don’t know for sure. What I do know is that I was once involved in gathering all emails, notes and meeting minutes for a student who had been expelled. The student did not request their records; they hired a lawyer who requested the information. Our lawyer immediately instructed us to release all communications related to the disciplinary incident.
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Depends on the school. Some expel their students for being caught dancing.
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@Laxmama24 you’ve gotten lots of advice here and I don’t have much to add in that regards; however, I just want to send you a virtual hug. This parenting gig is not an easy one. I hope that you will be able to get the information you need to help your son, and wish you luck moving forward.
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I am so sorry this happened. A semester suspension seems extreme for an open beer can.
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Which raises the question of what the penalty is for an open empty beer can in hand.