Nervous wreck over fraternity rush!

Parents Forum
61

<p>You know what it really comes down to? What character do your kids bring into the mix. I've read these posts and it's a bunch of blame game crap. Personal responsibility is forgotten. No one can make you do what you don't want to do, unless by physical force. </p>

<p>Like many here, I was against the frat system, made my kid pay his own way and simply reminded him not to allow anything to happen to him that would cause me to lose respect for him. Now in his senior year, he is the acedemic chair for the frat and a dean's list premed. His frat has a higher GPA than the entire student body and has done a great many social services in the community. His imput and other frat brothers input to the group has made them a strong social service, acedemic group. </p>

<p>And yes, they party a bit. They drink, they dance, they socialize. They always have 3-4 bothers abstain and monitor the situation. They have a good track record. The only time the police have come recently is when they chased a robbery suspect into the house (no, he wasn't a member) and when the neighbor complained one day because they "thought" they were taking drugs, they were behaving so strangely. The drug was milk and they were doing the old science experiment of can you drink a gallon of milk in an hour? [Didn't say every thing was smart they did.] </p>

<p>It's been a great experience for him and his brothers. I've found them to be pretty nice kids overall, friendly to everybody. Their biggest fault is decor and cleanliness of the frat in general. It's like the floor of an old movie theater. Cleaning is not their best subject.</p>

<p>Anyway, your college experience is what you make of it. If losing your self respect is part of joining any organization....why join? That's a pretty simple thing to ask your kid. However, go see, look for yourself and investigate. Make up your own mind and ask questions. Hey, I would have never tried TOFU if I listened to other people and didn't investigate on my own. </p>

<p>I would think every school is different. Investigate and look for yourself. If it's not you, then you looked, you looked deeper and then you made a decision. This isn't an absolute right or wrong choice, it's a personal choice.</p>

62

<p>Cheers -- To respond to you and to pick up on some of the posts since, we are not particularly happy he's in the frat, but we are pleased that he has enjoyed college so far. This was his way of finding a close community at a university not known for community and far away from home. He really likes the formal dances and the mixers (again, much to our surprise), and playing intramural sports on the frat team. </p>

<p>On the other hand, every argument against frats stated here is an argument I threw at him when he considered pledging. (Plus more about predatory attitudes towards women, homophobia, etc.) His response was that not all frats are the same and that he would remain the same guy with the same values he's always had. I will say that I now acknowledge he was right on both those counts. His school has a very small frat scene (one of the reasons he picked it, ironically), and he only considered one frat, the one he had friends in. He's still a nice guy, the couple of friends of his we've met there are nice guys, with steady girlfriends and excellent grades. One of his fellow pledges was gay though he later de-activated his fraternity membership. </p>

<p>My main concern has remained the drinking. Not that there isn't plenty of drinking in the dorms and the local bars with fake ids, just that I'm concerned that frats perpetuate the drinking games and binges that many other students outgrow after first or second year. Our son's living in the house for the first time this year, adding to our concern. We also wonder about all the time and energy he's put in to his various fraternity positions and what the results might have been if he'd devoted that to different types of organizations or activities. But that clearly was his choice to make, not ours. Everyone in the frat, including our son, also seems to be involved in lots outside it, whether sports, music, politics, internships, or other things.</p>

63

<p>"My main concern has remained the drinking"</p>

<p>"he would remain the same guy with the same values he's always had"</p>

<p>Sounds like you answered your own concerns. You gave your son a base character that other people can't change. If he decides to drink or party a bit, do you think he will forget what you've taught him? </p>

<p>I think if your lines of communication are open, you'll find he's going to be OK all the way around. Will he do dumb things? absolutely. The goal is preventing stupid things from occuring and knowing the difference. I have this feeling you've covered that.</p>

<p>As one of my favorite movie quotes goes... "our shenanigans are cheeky and fun, not mean and cruel." I'm willing to accept the shenanigans as long as they are cheeky and fun.</p>

64

<p>I wish it were easier to assess the overall "Greekness" on a campus. I know they publish figures etc., but I don't believe that they truly reflect the culture of a campus. And of course all the information sessions always downplay Greek life, so it's hard to assess from that either. </p>

<p>As an example, my son's LAC posts frat participation at 25% and an LAC down the road posts theirs at 27%, yet I know from personal experience that the "frat influence" at the other school is way beyond what it is at son's school (possibly because the other school still has on-campus frat houses).</p>

<p>If your kid or your family doesn't value the frat scene, it would be bad to end up at a school that is dominated by frats, but it feels like it could be tricky to detect.</p>

65

<p>Since the Greek students tend to be the ones most involved in student life, it stands to reason that they will be more visible. My college only had 15% of the student body in GLO membership. Yet we were members of the Student Government, the volunteers for the school, the captains of the teams and officers of the school clubs.</p>

66

<p>I have a few things to share. First, some one said a few pages back that sororities do not have higher GPAs than the all women's average. I beg to differ. I am an active alum for my sorority and have taken on a position overseeing all the chapters within my state. Each month they complete reports and hold an Executive Council meeting. Following this meeting (which is supervised by adult advisors) the reports are sent to me. In the spring of 2006, all eight of my chapters had GPA's that were above the all women's average for the school. Their chapter GPA's were all above 3.0 and most of the all-women's averages for the schools were around the 2.89 range. Members with GPA's below 3.0 were placed on scholarship contracts and must complete study hall. You can say, oh, like they actually do that, but they did in my chapter when I was a member, so yes, they really do. As for test files, when I was a member our chapter had them, but no one ever used them. Most people never added to them and I never once used them so they were sort of like the fireplace in my living room....pretty to look at but never used (I live in the south). </p>

<p>Also, there is a lot of stereotyping regarding sorority/fraternity members going on here. I was a member of a sorority for four full years (pledged the first week of my freshman year), served as president, and I do not drink. I was never pressured to do so and I had other friends who not only did not binge drink but didn't drink at all. Does this kind of stuff go on? Sure....but don't stereotype all Greeks.</p>

67

<p>I think there is a big difference between joining a sorority and joining a frat. I have a young co-worker who was president of her sorority - a very big fan of sororities - who told me she would encourage her daughter but definitely discourage her son. I don't think either belong on campus but I would not be as concerned with a sorority.</p>

68

<p>Riley, You have been unhappy with a lot of the things in the South. You don't like the politics, you think VA is a bit "rednecky" (definitely your words and not mine), you are afraid that William and Mary has no clout in New England for employment after college. Sounds to me you have a lot more issues than whether your son joined a fraternity.</p>

69

<p>Go get em mommy :) </p>

<p>The best advice is go look for yourself. Maybe you'll have a great experience, maybe you won't. My kid's have fallen along the lines of a great time, great friends and great opportunity.</p>

70

<p>Ah, Motherdear, how nice of you to sum up my discomfort with where my son is in school. Many thanks for reading all of my posts and providing a diagnosis!!! I can't say I have ever tracked one person's posts - I do not have that kind of time or interest, I guess. But, since you believe (quite accurately, of course) that I am just a malcontent, let me expound for a moment. </p>

<p>Am I unhappy about where my son is in college? Absolutely, I am absolutely miserable about the conservative, religious and Greek influences that embody and influence this campus. I am overwhelmed by them - I never saw them despite all the research I did!!! Man, those influences were not obvious during our visits to WM. Plus, I never thought Virginia was "the south" - to me Virginia is next to DC. I do feel guilty that I/we did not appreciate the overwhelming presence of certain cultural differences that exist between at least Southern Virginia (southern colleges) and Boston. I am very disappointed that my son is in a largely conservative, religious and Greek environment - the exact opposite of what we hoped to find in an academic envrionment. To help other parents who might also be blind to the very real differences that exist, I do offer my POV. I hope to encourage parents to look at more than selectivity, size of campus, beauty of campus, safety of campus, GPAs and SATs. If I did not recognize or consider these geographic differences, perhaps others are not thinking about them either. </p>

<p>This is NOT a rag on the south, of course. However, there are very real differences in the environments and I would never have willingingly or intentionally placed my son in an environment with strong conservative, religious or Greek influences. I was blinded by the quality of the school, the physical beauty of the school, the weather, the friendliness of the student body, the size of the school and his interest. But, what did he know when he applied ED in Oct of his senior year? His parents should have known better! So, I see this as a mission but perhaps it is just therapy. </p>

<p>WM is a great school. It just isn't the school we thought it was or in an environment that we thought it would be in. </p>

<p>BTW, WM does not have any clout in NE. I am sorry to bring this up but I can count on my two hands the number of people who recognize WM and even fewer who would put it in a sentence with any of the top tier schools. A frat would have been a non-issue here in the Boston area. Clearly, thinking about these things before your student chooses a school is better than being miserable about it later.</p>

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<p>Oh, almost forgot - I do not typically refer to people as "rednecks" so please help me out with the post that includes this. I do not think, btw, that the students on the campus of WM are rednecky - not at all.</p>

72

<p>02-06-2006, 07:31 PM #123<br>
Rileydog
Junior Member</p>

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<p>So it's just the rest of VA that you don't understand?</p>

<p>Interesting you say that about William and Mary being not recognized in MA. I grew up in a Boston suburb just west of the city. There were 2 kids in my class (back in the early '80s) that applied to William and Mary. One was rejected and "settled" for Cornell. The other got in and attended. The Career College Center in my hs definitely knew about the College.</p>

<p>Through my sorority alumnae association where I currently live, I have met several William and Mary graduates who are fellow members of my GLO. About half were originally from Fairfield County, CT. </p>

<p>My parents were nonGreeks in college and I did have a bias against selective organizations when I went to college. I am glad that they were open-minded enough to accept my choice (and consequently my siblings) to pledge a GLO. It sounds as if your son is having a great time. I hope he does well there and chooses the path that is right for him.</p>

<p>I would hardly call William and Mary the bastion of conservative thinking (not that that's a bad thing). Like all schools, it has both College Republicans and College Democrats. In fact I know more children of Democrats than offspring of Republicans at that school.</p>

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<p>I just can't get over the exclusivity arguement that gets brought up again and again...I met way way more people by being greek than I ever would have as an independent. Simply by knowing more people, and having them introduce me to their friends, I'm sure that I met nearly the full spectrum of diversity at my school (which since it's a large state University in the midwest is admittedly not the most diverse place to begin with). </p>

<p>Plus I never thought I'd hear the day when it was better to be lonely, homesick, and otherwise miserable than to go out and do something about it. By that logic, the best college experience one could have would be to be stuck in one's room and never meet anyone. </p>

<p>Joining a fraternity for me (a large and prominent international social fraternity) was the best decision I ever made. I became such close friends with so many people and guys in my pledge class are in medical school (me and one other), pharmacy school, dental school, law school (3 guys), or getting their MBAs (2 plus one of the law students is getting a joint JD/MBA). Two others are in the last year of their Master's programs in architecture. That's more than 1/2 of my pledge class in the process of earning advanced degrees, and those of us who graduated in 4 years are only 2 years post-grad. I doubt you could pick any random selection of 21 guys on my campus and find similar numbers. Those with jobs are working with companies like Deloitte & Touche and Union Pacific. One is selling surgical equipment with a large pharmaceutical company (if you know anything about pharm sales, surgical instrumentation is a pretty big time position).</p>

<p>Now, for as positive as it has been for me, I will agree that at some campuses, fraternities and sororities are a drain on the campus, providing nothing of value. Greeks are not involved, don't go to class, and fail to do much of anything except spend their time drunk or high. Pledges are hazed, members are destructive to property, and chapters breed nothing but chlamydia. These chapters embarrass me. But the same could be said for groups on nearly any campus - at mine it was the club sports - hockey, lacrosse, rugby. The rugby team captains ran for student government president and 1st VP on a campaign to make the campus wet again. Needless to say they couldn't convince anyone to vote for them and lost by a landslide to a team made up of Greeks whose platform included passing a referendum to build a new culture center, improving relations with the state legislature and making the student government more accountable to the students.</p>

<p>The fact remains that generalizations about any set of organizations only leads to misconceptions, stereotyping and little change. Especially when the organizations in question have such a wide variation in action, membership, and culture as the nation's fraternities and sororities.</p>

74

<p>Here's a sorority exclusivity story to curdle your milk, since you asked.</p>

<p>A friend's daughter joined a very popular sorority chapter at a mid-size private school in a large cosmopolitan city during her freshman year in 1998. She loved it--until she participated in Rush the following year and listened as Jewish girls were routinely rejected on the basis of religion ONLY. No discussion. She's Jewish, she's NOT one of us.</p>

<p>After the session, this girl stood up and announced that she was, in fact, half Jewish and very proud of that heritage. The room went deathly quiet. She was shunned in the weeks that followed. She transferred to another school the following year.</p>

<p>Just because you didn't feel the hurt that Greek exclusiviity causes, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.</p>

75

<p>Bigred:
[quote]
Plus I never thought I'd hear the day when it was better to be lonely, homesick, and otherwise miserable than to go out and do something about it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Talk about a generalization! If you aren't in a frat you are lonely and miserable...On the other hand, isn't that the whole point of those who have spoken here against the frat culture?</p>

76

<p>This is a very helpful website:
<a href="http://www.insidehazing.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehazing.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

77

<p>
[quote]
Plus I never thought I'd hear the day when it was better to be lonely, homesick, and otherwise miserable than to go out and do something about it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So the only way to avoid lonliness is to join an exclusive group to which you must be invited to pledge & then voted upon? How about just moving in and out of whatever activities, organizations, and social gatherings that suit you, without having to be designated worthy? </p>

<p>Join if you wish, but be aware that it's not something to bring up on a job interview unless you scored the appointment through frat contacts. While I would not necessarily rule out a frat or sorority member for consideration, I'd want to be shown that he or she was an independent, confident, open-minded person. Greek membership would make me more likely to question whether the candidate had those qualities.</p>

<p>And I would rather be spending time alone in my room than be hanging out with a bunch of anti-semites, like cheers' friend encountered. That was a story from 1998, by the way. Not 1958. Those crafty Jews can sometimes sneak through & fool us all.</p>

78

<p>I was on the "Pledge Walk-out" with the sorority I later depledged, and I can remember clear as if it were yesterday, being in the middle of some restuarant and one of my "sisters" talking about "Jewing someone down". </p>

<p>Maybe that was the beginning of the end for me...as a Jew, and an open minded person. I could never affiliate with people like that.</p>

79

<p>I was on the "Pledge Walk-out" with the sorority I later depledged, and I can remember clear as if it were yesterday, being in the middle of some restuarant and one of my "sisters" talking about "Jewing someone down". </p>

<p>Maybe that was the beginning of the end for me...as a Jew, and an open minded person. I could never affiliate with people like that.</p>

80

<p>Guess I didn't mention my kid's in a Jewish frat. That is actually part of what bothers me. Though they do not discriminate, a fraternal organization based on any religious or ethnic identity runs contrary to my ideal of going to college to make close friends with people from lots of different backgrounds.</p>