@twoinanddone, I understand your reasoning. I wonder if the reason some students who would be devastated by being rejected by a Greek house but would accept being rejected from the business club or robotics team is because one rejection seems highly personal while the other could be attributed to lack of tangible skills. It’s not the rejections I find objectionable. It’s the reasons behind them.
I agree. Greek Life supporters suggesting that ‘The whole point is to find a like minded group of people you want to be friends with’ and ‘Randomizing it would make for awkward groups of people who may not get along on a social level’ perpetuate the reality that the people in these organizations are not only exclusionary, but have little interest in living with, and making friends with, dissimilar students. Can one only be friends with someone they are ‘like minded’ with?
During sorority rush, many women in a given house haven’t even spoken with many PNMs who end up as pledges. Further, many women in a given pledge class have not even met each other before pledging…so how does anyone really know there will be anyone they want to be friends with? Seems like many think the answer to that is to choose people that look like them, have similar backgrounds, SES status, and/or wear similar clothes.
@10s4life , that is highly unlikely. Even if the houses are privately owned and not located on university tax-exempt land, they almost certainly are mentioned on the university website or publications as free publicity, and likely campus security responds to incidents occurring there. They are almost never truly independent of university affiliation and support.
For people on a website that champions ultra-selective college admissions based on often nebulously defined “fit” that leaves incredibly qualified applicants rejected from groups they would really like to be in, there sure is a sudden issue with any sort of competitive membership selection on this thread.
Selectivity is necessary when those qualified exceed slots available. I think we all recognize that. Just as I don’t particularly care for the basis of selectivity in beauty pageants because I think it demeans women, I don’t support the basis in Greek life, either.
Psych, there was a time when Harvard Adcom’s described applicants as “hearty” or “healthy” or other such euphemisms to distinguish the stock of good old Yankees and Mayflower descendants from “urban ethnics” (mostly Italian and Jewish). And yes, I find that disturbing. If you were to find a selective college which is screening in on the basis of “she looks good in shorts” or screening out because “her hair isn’t well groomed and so she won’t be fun to be around at a party” then I think EVERYONE here would be upset.
You’re talking about a completely different phenomenon when it comes to sorority and frat selection. Looks, grooming, the amount of time a woman is prepared to spend straightening her hair or getting a manicure- even the most opaque admissions process doesn’t touch that stuff.
You don’t think job interviews touch on grooming at all? Yes, there was and still is discriminatory bias in all types of selection—isn’t Harvard being sued for allegations of bias against Asian applicants for being perceived as “quiet, boring workhorses”?—and that should be shut down (it never will in its entirety, sadly, but it should), but what people are saying in this thread is, “all applicants should be guaranteed a spot that is given at random”, but I’m guessing many would throw fits if we suggested doing the same for all applicants with, say, above a 2100 SAT. If you don’t believe in competitive selection for its very real implicit biases, that’s very defensible. But don’t champion it in one context and decry it in another. (And if you don’t think even need-blind college admissions reward high SES, you are willfully ignoring reality).
I’m not sure why acknowledging that discrimination still occurs is an argument for encouraging those organizations that practice it. Shouldn’t we be expecting less improper discrimination, not arguing that lots of people discriminate racially so who cares if Greeks do?
Psych- I really don’t care what frats and sororities do or don’t do. I object to hearing about 16 year old HS girls whose drinks get spiked at frat parties and are then assaulted, but I grew up in a university town so these horrifying incidents aren’t new. But for the most part- I really don’t care. Choose whomever you wish to hang out with.
What I find funny on this thread is the notion that frats somehow have elevated doing philanthropic work, community service, team work, etc. to a level that justifies their other, somewhat objectionable practices. As if a kid can’t learn to network or socialize by doing other things in college. And the claim that “we need photographs so we remember who you are” is downright hilarious. If the orchestra selection team can remember who the violinists are among the sea of instrumentalists who are playing the same Mozart movement, the sorority rush team can remember who is the skier and who is the salsa dancer.
So frat folks and the folks who love them- just don’t be hypocrites. “We are a private social organization and we can decide who we want to admit and who we want to exclude. And we like fun blonds, (or surfer dudes, or lacrosse players from New Canaan, CT or Atherton, CA)”. Period. Don’t gum up the works by contorting into knots over the photos, the “does your family have enough money to pay our social fees and do you own a tuxedo” sort of stuff. That weakens your argument.
Re: job interviews- I’ve been in corporate recruiting for over 30 years, and you’d be surprised by who gets hired. The “grooming standards” for a director of AI are very different than the “grooming standards” for the Head of Government Relations. For good reason- the director of AI is going to work and supervise a team of coders who show up for work in Grateful Dead t-shirts and flip flops (in cold weather- they are often barefoot when it’s nice outside). The Head of Government Relations spends her day on the Hill or having meetings with the head of monetary policy of various countries where we have operations discussing the issues of the day.
Do I care what someone wears or what their hairdo looks like? No. But someone whose mission it is to be a cogent voice in DC on behalf of the company who doesn’t shower is a risky hire. I fail to see how this is analagous to a frat or sorority…
I’m not saying that at all. We should discourage discrimination in all organizations, and yet acknowledge that it’s impossible for anyone to be completely unbiased (and instead responsible for acknowledging and checking those biases). I’m having trouble seeing how posters are okay with “holistic” selection for “fit”—and all the bias that allows in—in one process but vehemently opposed to it in another. It strikes me as hypocritical.
The main reason I frown upon Greek life is the danger. Many studies indicate that women in sororities are twice as likely to be victims of sexual assault. Men in frats 3 times as likely to commit sexual assault. Those numbers are horrible. Frats are still hanging on to that “boys will be boys” mentality . Obviously not all frats and sororities are “bad”, but I’m thankful that my kids have no interest.
This spring, my niece decided to drop out of her sorority as a first semester senior, due to the high cost and time involved. She has practically been shunned, and told that she can never refer to her sorority membership after she graduates. I think it’s ridiculous. I’m happy our daughter has no interest in joining a sorority, even though the majority of her friends are members.
i spoke a bit to my S about this. OPs son was hurt. This isn’t good. S said it isn’t always fun to reject an applicant. At his school with no formal rush there is no public rejection. Prior to school starting they just don’t get a letter offering them to join. First semester they can contact the fraternity be invited to functions (like next week’s dance a thon for charity the entire school participates in) and see if they want to join. In their fraternity everyone lives in the house for the first year (or semester if join in the spring). They are limited by how many spots are available in the house. He says this year they only decided not to offer based on a couple of things: 1) GPA too low. They have a lot of pre-professional and engineering students and have one of the highest GPA’s on campus and are working hard to move up. 2) Seems high, or drinks too much, too wild at a party. They do not want to get into trouble because the members don’t want to endanger their futures by someone who doesn’t know how to behave. 3) Attitude towards the female visitors. They will not accept anyone that isn’t respectful to the girls. Looks have had nothing to do with acceptance or rejection, race has nothing to do with it. They do exclude the jerks and I’m ok with that.
I feel OPs rejection was from a school that still uses outdated methods of rushing that do lead to more public rejection and sadness. I don’t like that and I feel for her son.
Are all Greeks bad? No. Are some Greeks bad? Yes There is not one answer to this. Is it for everyone? No Are business fraternities for everyone? No. Are honors clubs for everyone? No It is an individual choice. I have not heard of a guy that didn’t get into a house at S’s school if he wanted to. Girls maybe but I don’t know. I know S has grown through the Greek system, is on a first name basis with a CEO of a major corporation, and gained leadership positions. Could he have gotten this in other areas? Maybe but this is what he felt strongly about and has thrived in.
OPs son can decide for himself what his next step is. If it is Greek great, if it is not great. Point is that he is hurt and that is sad.
So would you hire someone who doesn’t fit the particular corporate culture? A candidate could have all the skills in the world, be the smartest one out there, etc. But if he/she doesn’t fit the corporations culture, it could be a toxic mix that just won’t work. Countless examples out there.
Frats/Srats have their own vibe – some kids will fit that vibe and some won’t. My kid is a t-shirt and shorts type. He would absolutely not fit in any organization which required a shirt and tie more than once a year.
These incidents are not specific to “Greek life.” Off campus stuff is just as bad. Just read the police department reports – my kid’s school publishes them daily. Months ago I told the story of a visit to the local campus bar. Worse than any Greek party I have ever seen.
@roycroftmom I didn’t say they weren’t affiliated with the university. I said they don’t receive funds from the school. Two very different things.
Free publicity And security is a big type of funding.
@roycroftmom I’m not here for debate but security is paid for out of pocket for in house fraternity events. Unless you count police or EMT respondents but that is a public service everyone is entitled to. The Interfraternity Council does the main publicity for events which is university recognized. Again I said this was true of my university it may be different at other schools.
@“Cardinal Fang” At D20’s school, teachers will open their doors at lunch for kids to hang out in their rooms. My popular cheerleader daughter went to her science teacher for help in class. The science club kids were in there and before the teacher even got there, they blatantly told my daughter that she wasn’t welcome and that she should leave. All kinds of social groups reject/exclude kids. At her high school, the rudest kids aren’t the athletes and the cheerleaders - it is the AP science nerds who think they are better than everyone else. My daughter is not the only child to have been looked down on.
Of course there are tiers in fraternities and sororities. There are tiers in my office with bullies, mean girls, and passive aggressive adults. And I doubt my office is any different than the majority of workplaces.
Actually, every college in my state has a beauty pageant whose winner goes on to compete in the Miss State pageant in the Miss America system.