NYT article: New York is the place to be

Parent Cafe
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<p>I apologize if, in adding my 2 cents, I trip over something I missed in the middle of the thread.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>There was an attempt in the Rockefeller years to establish Buffalo as a Berkeley-like flagship. At the time, the school president was Martin Meyerson (later president of Penn). They spent a lot of money to bring in top young professors (among them people like Leslie Fiedler, one of the top 3 or 4 American-born English professors of his generation, Dory Friend, later the long-term president at Swarthmore, and Warren Bennis; the members of the Budapest Quartet were all on the faculty of the music school). The effort foundered due to a combination of rivalry with more downstate institutions (then mainly Harpur), state budget issues, and hostility to students because of Vietnam-era issues.</p></li>
<li><p>Even back then, as others have said, affluent New York kids generally didn't go to SUNY. My upstate private school class of 110 sent four kids each to Harvard and Yale and one to the SUNY system (a really gifted, very nonaffluent African-American who went to Buffalo). One of the things that has changed, however, is that the vast majority of students and their families are much more aware of elitist education options, thanks to a steady stream of movies and TV shows telling about them. The summer after my freshman year at Yale, I worked a blue-collar job in Buffalo. When the permanent employees asked me where I went to college, none of them had ever heard of it. They asked me where it was, and I told them New Haven, Connecticut. One of them -- completely seriously -- responded "I don't get it. You seem OK, but something must be really wrong with you. Why do you have to go that far away just to go to college? My brother-in-law is practically a moron, but even he can go to Niagara Community College, and he's passing there." That wouldn't happen today.</p></li>
<li><p>I am a couple years older than edad and weenie, it seems, and a little younger than marny. I knew people who went to Harpur from the late 60s to the late 70s (a lot of kids who worked as counsellors at a summer camp where I also worked when I was 16-17, and some law school friends, went there). There were LOTS of drugs there in the late 60s-early 70s, the school's reputation was very hippie-ish (a little like UCSC), and the school changed character pretty sharply and got much more careerist when the war ended. </p></li>
<li><p>When did the state college system get folded into SUNY? When I lived in Buffalo, it was still separate, like in many states, or at least I think it was. That's where a lot of the old teachers' colleges came from. Also, does anyone know the history why CUNY never merged with SUNY? I forget who said it, but there's no question that for NYC kids CUNY is a really important public option.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I don't think SUNY institutions had a lock on the nothing to do on weekends. I know people who attended other upstate private schools back then who recount similar stories. My best friend's brother went to Colgate and all his family can tell me about it now, so many years later, is that it is "hard to get to and isolated". Good grief, not to pound on Vassar too much, but talk about nothing to do - the place emptied out on weekends (that's why these places are or were called "suitcase schools". Everyone took off to go to NYC - it is a magnet now and it was then, too.) </p>

<p>Way back then, colleges offered academics, the occasional lecture, a few boring mixers, and sports events - but only if you were lucky enough to attend a college that had the programs. I also remember much more structured study hours and a pretty tame dorm life. Kinda like boarding school and it was stifling by today's standards. So, edad, if you made it through, especially as an OOS transfer student, my hat's off to you. From what I remember, back then nobody even expected the colleges to organize or provide much in the way of social activities much less get involved in what you did during your free time. Also, there wasn't much emphasis on diversity because that too is also a recent development in college admisisons. The "college experience", as Marny mentioned a few posts ago, is a big part of the package we pay for and our kids look for when choosing a college these days. Tuition is huge chunk of change these days, too- and we all know that tuition doesn't even cover half of what most kids get both in terms of academics, programs, and the "college experience".</p>

<p>Btw, from what I have read, 2006 is Broome County's bicentennial year and Binghamton is celebrating 200 years of diversity. The ethnic fair and the "Wet and Wild" parade sound like fun. :)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/BicentennialSchedule.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gobroomecounty.com/BicentennialSchedule.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I was at Binghamton '66-68. I would call it anything but hippie-ish and again drug use seemed very minimal. Could it be that the reputation involved an upstate image of the downstate students, rather than reality?</p>

<p>I guess I aggravated marny, but these old recollections are kind of fun.</p>

<p>Incidentally, my D goes to a well known, top 25 college. One of our Long Island neighbors saw my D's college sweatshirt and had the same reaction you mentioned. The neighbor felt bad that my D did not make it into the local SUNY and had to go to an OOS school.</p>

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<p>It's too bad that the Bolivian Dance Group had costume problems. That sort of problem can ruin a good parade.</p>

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<p>edad, are we going to miss out on a good story? Problems with the Bolivian costume dancers - hmmm ...</p>

<p>JHS, I'm not at all surprised at any past attempt to create a flagship U. Right now, the 4 university research centers all claim and compete for the "honor".</p>

<p>The following webpage gives a succinct overview of the additions to the SUNY system from 1948 -1957. Of course, there were other changes made to the system during the Rockefeller era in the 60s.</p>

<p><a href="https://portal.rfsuny.org/portal/page?_pageid=1308,1620149&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://portal.rfsuny.org/portal/page?_pageid=1308,1620149&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>If anyone cares to know about in the exact date when each unit joined the SUNY system should read the following linked report. SUNY became a 64 unit system in 1975. Some sources put the present number of units at 70.</p>

<p><a href="http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:IqOF_f1HyP4J:www.rfsuny.org/3bchallenge/pdf/past_progress_promise.pdf+state+college+system+became+part+of+SUNY&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=firefox-a%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:IqOF_f1HyP4J:www.rfsuny.org/3bchallenge/pdf/past_progress_promise.pdf+state+college+system+became+part+of+SUNY&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=firefox-a&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The following chart shows the geographical distribution of SUNY institutions state-wide according to congressional district:</p>

<p><a href="https://portal.rfsuny.org/portal/page?_pageid=1306,1620839&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://portal.rfsuny.org/portal/page?_pageid=1306,1620839&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I am sure Marny is right re: downstate kids from '72-'76 and Harpur College. But drugs Marny? They were everywhere --everywhere I was, at least. They were at Bronx High School of Science. At Albany, at Stony Brook, where I visited my friends. At all the CUNYs. In the neighborhoods where I lived and my friends lived in NYC. Where were they not? During my years at college I was the ONLY person I knew out of an extended group of friends and acquaintances that did not do LSD. </p>

<p>This was the New York City of the Sixties and Seventies --and any school filled with those kids or their neighbors from Long Island and Westchester reflected the gestalt.</p>

<p>It could be that at Oswego, where there were more from upstate, it was less of a phenom. Drugs were part of the culture at all schools fed by urban areas in the Northeast as far as I know. Not fair to single out Binghamton.</p>

<p>It has nothing to do with the caliber of student in the context of the Sixties and Seventies, given the culture of the time, especially when most of the "smart kids" from downstate fancied themselves part of the counterculture: At least they did where I was from. At Bronx Science, every time there was an antiwar march, the entire school emptied to protest, even the teachers.</p>

<p>It was another time and place, another world.</p>

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<p>" I can only imagine what Oswego was like if you went to Binghamton for fun."</p>

<p>I can tell you what Oswego was like in the seventies ... 146 bars. That's right. 146 bars in that small town (or Port City, if you will) as well as one in the student union on campus. The drinking age was 18 and all anyone did was drink and party, and very occasionally study. Yes, there were a few folks like Al Roker who found time to be on the cable TV station out of Syracuse, but for the most part - it was a party school. Everyone had a good time. Most people I know from Oswego are still friends with their college friends - thirty years later.</p>

<p>I can't even imagine how Oswego's economy changed when the drinking age was raised to 21. It was a very different time. People went through kegs and kegs of beer at floor parties in the dorms.</p>

<p>My roommate and I visited a friend at Brandeis once for the weekend while I was in college. It was Saturday night and people were walking with books. I was stunned and asked my friend what was up. She calmly replied that everyone was heading for the library. My roommate and I shook our heads in disbelief. Maybe Binghamton was more like Brandeis back then!</p>

<p>And, Marny is right. NOTHING closed that school down - except for the wind - on rare occasion. Snow was just part of your normal day - they came along, cleaned it up, and dumped it into Lake Ontario!</p>

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<p>twinmom, I have a relative who attended in the early 80s. It was a party school, and he had a great time at Oswego.</p>

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<p>And who says those bars closed down or stopped serving underaged kids? I am not sure about Oswego but in many college towns income from underaged drinkers is a big part of the local economy and everyone looks the other way. I have a neighbor who attends Oswego and apparently it is still a party school - awash with alcohol and drugs. Alcohol is allowed in the dorms and the substance-free dorms are not very popular. I suspect a few parents require that there kids enroll in them. Comments by the Director of Residence Life give an indication of the attitude of the Oswego administration. He appears to view alcohol use as a normal part of campus life and isn't too concerned about underaged drinking unless there is "abuse." I suspect that means DWI or associated property damage, which can result in the requirement for a 7.5 hr course. I'll bet that course is a real hoot. Just another reason to love the SUNYs and all of the locations in isolated, small snowbelt towns.
<a href="http://newtimes.rway.com/2005/studentb05/dorm.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://newtimes.rway.com/2005/studentb05/dorm.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I'm still shaking my head at the thought of anyone coming to SUNY Bing in the 70's for a party. It's just SAD! (We did go to SUNY Cortland once looking for a party - fairly successfully as I recall...)</p>

<p>I guess I'd believe it if we heard from someone who actually attended there in the late 60's/70's that there was a lively party/drug scene. So far, the eyewitnesses vehemently dispute that...</p>

<p>Hey edad! Quit bashing us snowy places!!! We love the snow...really we do, we do, we do, we do, we do, we do... ;)</p>

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<p>Everyone seems to be complaining about the near 100 degree heat. I think it is not too bad. Sure beats 10 degrees and snow.</p>

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<p>I'm going to report that as a "Problem Post!"</p>

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<p>I was in Rochester in February two years ago when my D auditioned at Eastman. I am still trying to get warm.</p>

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<p>Wimp!!! :D</p>

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<p>twinmom,
DH and I were at Oswego 80-82 . 146 Bars? Really? We definitely had some great times there-mostly at Bucks. (Remember that place?) I had no idea there were that many bars!</p>

<p>As much I hated the snow, (I did not know how much I hated it until Oswego!) I was facinated by those storms rolling in off the lake. You could see them heading toward the shore. And those amazing sunsets...</p>

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<p>Hey, my snow and wind stories are my best stories ever! And yes, they really did put up ropes now and then on the bridge that went across Glimmerglass Lagoon. I loved Oswego and had some of the best years of my life there. Okay, maybe a little too much fun. But I'm successful in my field ... and none the worse for wear!</p>

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<p>Just going to make a brief reappearance to say HI! to my fellow Oswegonians Chocolate and Twinmom. Hi Guys--
Are you also getting a bit bored with edad's snippy comments about our alma mater ?? Apparently he has it on good authority that it is awash with alcohol and drugs. I guess some things never change- </p>

<p>For the life of me, I can't figure out why he has taken such an interest in Oswego?? To be that aware of Oswego that he's able to "quote "the Director of Residence Life - is not a small feat!! I am sure he knows more about campus life than alot of the parents of current Oswego Students.</p>

<p>--- OMG could it be maybe he is the parent of an Oswego student and doesn't have the courage to tell us??? No what a ridiculous thought.--- </p>

<p>Also just curious edad-- you really are ripping into small upstate towns- is it just the SUNY's that evoke your wrath or is it also the locations of Colgate, Hamilton and a whole host of other schools in cold isolated areas in NY, Maine and New Hampshire.?? Do you feel the same about colleges like Colby-Bowdoin etc.?? You don't have to answer-it's just food for thought. But you really do seem to be singling out SUNY schools, while there are hundreds of schools throughout the country with similar environments.<br>
Anyway- alot of us did have fun and have fond memories of our time in upstate NY.<br>
Memories of wintertime in Oswego--Living in Seneca Hall, a favorite pasttime was to look out the windows and watch the kids hold onto the lampposts by Glimmerglass and be blown around the poles. It was like watching a merry-go-round. But instead of horses, it was usually small-skinny girls going round and round. Come to think of it maybe there wasn't much to do - but we did have fun and we had the best sunsets!! </p>

<p>For the fourth time- I'm outta here (for now).</p>

<p>And Weenie- I think both Cloverdale and JHS also confirmed drugs at Bing. Actually Cloverdale said they were everywhere in the 60s/70's where NYC kids went to college- and You Know NYC kids went to Bing- and JHS's camp friends who went to Bing confirmed drugs too) You probably hung out with a different crowd. As I said earlier, alcohol was more popular with the upstate crowd not drugs. Hey- they had 146 bars in Oswego!!</p>

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<p>Nice jabs there marny. No, I have no direct knowledge of Oswego. My direct knowledge of the SUNYs is limited to Binghamton, Stony Brook and Geneseo, and Cornell - if you want to count that as part of the SUNY system. I found the article on Oswego from a 30 second goggle of SUNY-Oswego-alcohol. I quoted the Oswego official because I consider his remarks to be totally unacceptable. I am very much opposed to underaged drinking including policies that tolerate underaged drinking in the dorms. I may joke a bit about upstate towns, but I am truly concerned that many of the SUNY locations are not attractive to downstate or OOS students. Perhaps, I project too much from my Binghamton experience. I cannot remember any movies, plays, concerts or any form of entertainment. Campus life was extremely boring. Although, we could watch the snow come down or the coal pile burn. I had a car and could drive to one of the few college-friendly bars. Usually my car just sat buried under a pile of snow. Few students left campus and the free beer in the dorms was largely untouched. There was a little pot use, but most students just studied. The campus was really small in the late 60's. There were not many secrets on campus. I guess some heavier drug use took place behind closed doors, but none that I was aware of. I don't think I hung out with a different crowd. I was one of the non-serious students on campus and was always looking for trouble. I would not want to see anyone repeat the old Bing experience. If I were doing it again, I also would not consider Colgate, Hamilton, or any school in an isolated area.</p>

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<p>Well, edad, I think we all already knew that your experience Upstate was less than satisfactory and that as the transplanted New Yorker that you are now (from where? I think you mentioned California?), you are a Downstate person through and through. I am now waiting for your next revelation to let us know that you spend the winter in Florida. I guess you wouldn't like New Hampshire or Vermont either... so much for the CC ski trip I had planned.</p>

<p>Transplanted New Yorker or not, edad truly embraces the mind-set of Downstate New York as the end all and be all of New York. Thank goodness the SUNY system is not set up that way. Historically, New Yorkers, especially Downstate and Long Island folks, overwhelmingly look to private colleges and universities as their higher ed. options of choice. This is also a mind-set and not a surprising one given the sheer number and choice of private higher ed. in New York. While private higher education and academic excellence most often do go hand-in-hand, this "private" mind-set only gets more deeply entrenched with every budget cut and fiscal crisis that hits both SUNY and CUNY. These days with tuition rates sky high, it is only logical that those less affluent families caught in the middle, those who do not qualify for substantial financial aid, want -and feel they need- an more affordable public alternative on a par with private institutions. Since there is such a wide range of private higher ed. options available in New York, it is no wonder that private institutions look favorably on any trend that reinforces and perpetuates any social or academic divide separating the public from private sectors. For many Downstate people, privatization of the public higher ed. system seems to be the best, easiest, and most logical solution to fix all the ills that have befallen SUNY - including luring back faculty, many of whom fled during the fiscal crisis of the 1990s. Tuition hikes coupled with downsizing then are the powerful combo punch advocated for SUNY schools to attract stronger and even more desirable academic applicant pools. Upper and middle class tax dollars are at work and, in this scheme, there should be a substantial real pay back to the middle and upper class for these tax dollars even though New York spends less on public higher education than most other states. </p>

<p>So, what else is wrong with this picture? Prestige , and I surmise edad would add, the "college experience" do play big roles here. First off, the higher SUNY tuition goes, the more the SUNY schools are placed in direct competition with private higher ed. options and, frankly, for many this will simply make the public option less attractive compared to all the other fabulous private colleges and universities in NY and OOS. (News flash: some students just adore Hamilton etc. and want to be there.) There is a cut-off point at which "tuition-sensitive" families will just turn away from public to go private because they will not be willing to go into debt for a public education but will be for the "private patina". That is why so many of the SUNY schools are rightly labeled "best buys" - and these schools include Geneseo, Plattsburgh and Binghamton. Also, which SUNY schools have the market power to handle a substantial tuition hike? Well, the answer to that one includes SUNY Geneseo, the four major research centers - and Binghamton (Upstate again!) stands out because it does have a robust, traditional-age, academically prepared, and largely affluent applicant pool who do look to and do enroll there because these SUNY schools are viable options to other high-cost private colleges. The question here is, would an increase in tuition set into motion a desirable dynamic of internal competition among these SUNY schools if they set out to woo the more academically selective and affluent students? This does have to do with Binghamton's and Geneseo's and even Stony Brook's market power and market niche - and many educators fear that making public SUNY's look more like their private counterparts would create a system of "haves" and "have nots" within the SUNY system - which probably would not really bother a "Downstate" New Yorker. </p>

<p>Historically, the institutions that make up the SUNY system - both Upstate and Downstate represent a differentiation and mix of missions and niches to meet the needs of all New Yorkers - and any tuition policy based on market power or selectivity has to take that into account.</p>