@faith3ever17820, George Washington University (GWU) would be a middle-tier medical school, maybe a little stronger middle-tier, esp. with its public policy/public health tracks, since it is located in Washington D.C.
@Roentgen Look up FAU 4th year newsletter they post the match there. And true there is a difference between the Cleveland Clinic Florida and the main Cleveland Clinic. However, Cleveland Clinic Florida still produces decent research and has residency programs so I would assume the rotations would at least be of good quality. I believe they also rotate through some sites that are level I or II trauma centers just to get more experiences. I think their average USMLE step 1 is 235+. And their match list is pretty good for just their second time around. Especially with limited faculty research so far although I believe that is changing. And although this may not actually mean anything I found that their average accepted MCAT is around a 514.
@texaspg I believe 18 were invited. So far 12 have accepted
@Roentgen
Thank you much for your insight. I do agree with most of what you say, especially that students in the program, those that have graduated, and long term members of CC (parents and students inclusive) are the best source for information. The knowledge steaming on this thread to me is amazing (including input from people like you, @dblazer, @texaspg, @1CRYZX etc). In fact,when I joined the thread I was seeking advise to see if my D was eligible to apply and got some excellent feed-back and options. However, I noticed that as we are heading closer to the commitment deadline getting into details of residency and fellowship adds to the complexity of decision-making.
Another absolute fact you eluded to- students are picking low tiered schools because they are ârisk averseâ. However, I am of the opinion that the security that these programs offer are so sought after that it becomes imperative for a student to make a very thoughtful, yet subjective judgment. For example, a student who is a stellar student with a near perfect GPA but is not the best standardized test taker should probably look at schools with no MCAT (even if it is a mid-tiered school). Off course, if and only if the student is sure he/she wants to be a doctor.
When I wrote my previous message I was of the assumption that most of the students applying to these programs have done their basic homework of the UG and med school- like tier of UG/ med school. These awesome students and parents are on top of everything (news, media releases, ranking, financial aid etc). So, if they are applying to California Northstate (which I hadnât heard of, pardon my ignorance) versus Yale or Brown UG they should be aware of what they are giving up to get into the security loop of BS/MD at Northstate and if it worth it. I donât see a point in looking at their match results when their UG is already up against the rocks, especially when they have top programs like Yale, MIT etc at their disposal. I was of the assumption that they would have already figured the problems through their homework.
Residency/ Fellowship, USMLE scores or match results should be considered when we are comparing apples to apples,when comparing schools/med schools at the same tier, I think. I say this because most of my students change their minds once they are in med school (even those who enter med school at a much older age). So, as for now I was trying to get students to first focus of the critical short term goals and then off course look into various other factors which will potentially change for most of them.
Interestingly, like you mentioned based on the senior med student output versus residency availability stats most of the students are forced to compromise on their area of interest/ hospital tier etc and settle in for lower choices. I was advising based on the fact that all of these are most likely to change as these students go through med school training.
In summary, I was trying to draw some extra attention towards short term goals. Needless, to say this for sure is just my personal opinion. I hope that our input/ conversation will give different perspectives to the students and parents who may use this thread as a guide to make their choices/ decisions. Hope all of this will help a few students in the next few years to come.
Everyone who already knows where they are going, all the best to you.
Any of you who have not made up their mind yet, remember - any decision YOU make is right for you at this time. Donât make it out of fear of future.
If you didnât get in, it is not considered a failure. You have got a taste of what is needed to apply 4 years from now and will be prepared.
Since I have been dealing with BS/MD students for almost 10 years (one of my ralativeâs kid got into USC back then) I have met different people who have altered their courses before joining, after joining, after completing BS, and so on.
The ones that donât have time to rethink are those who are in 7 year no MCAT programs. If they start, they usually keep going. I know a few who went to NU HPME and are now almost in fellowship programs. I know at least a couple who did 6 year programs who are successfully settled down after completing fellowships.
The ones who have 4 years, invariably start wondering. I know one who went to UK for an year from Rice/Baylor on a prestigious scholarship and went to Harvard when he got back. My relative had considered medical school costs at USC and since he was forced to take MCAT anyway and applied to Texas schools, completed medicine in Houston, and now is at a prestigious residency program. I know others who have originally turned down prestigious undergrad schools to go to Rice/Baylor who took MCAT and found that they could go to higher ranked schools than Baylor just like the one who went to Harvard. I am actually watching some of that play out this year for one or two I know⊠Baylor probably figured out many are leaving and have cut the number of seats over the years from 15 now all the way down to 6. I find it ironic that Debakey high school gets more combined seats for UH/Baylor than real college programs at Baylor.
OTOH, those who decided to pick an undergrad over a combined program are also successful. I know one this year who didnât go to NU 4 years ago who will go to Harvard. I know one who didnât go 7 years ago who is finishing med at Stanford. I know another who didnât take Rice/Baylor about 10 years ago who ended up at Yale med.
I also know others who scored high on MCAT (one has a 42) who has not applied to med school 2 years after completing college because they are deciding whether they even want to do it. Some are postponing their admissions despite getting into top notch med schools because they have lucrative job offers they want to explore.
What I see among those who try out for BS/MD programs is determination. They have the will to succeed and they have more focus on getting into medical school than most of the other applicants who have a vague idea of becoming doctors. What does that mean - they are starting college on the right foot, have goals, plan ahead of time and try to get there.
@Everyone Hey guys! for those going to brooklyn BA/MD, can we create a facebook group?
To be fair, I think in terms of looking at the future in terms of a subspecialty fellowship, that is just WAY too far ahead for senior high school students to be considering when it comes to selecting a Bachelor/MD program. Just choosing medicine (which is more prolonged in the MD/DO pathway vs. other pathways) and choosing a residency specialty is hard enough. I do think seeing the prior track record of your medical school in the NRMP does have value and is important, when it comes to specialties that you may be considering, as well as showing the tier of institutions students from that school have historically matched into. It can give you very important clues, not as a crystal ball of the future, but as a trend, the same way you would evaluate a patientâs baseline hemoglobin & hematocrit and trend them.
I think the decision-making that is occuring this month is a very complex decision making process when it comes to Bachelor/MD programs. Itâs way different than the regular undergrad process by far. The main thing (I feel) is that a student shouldnât feel from the start like their medical school somehow hinders them in anyway when it comes to going for specialties they want to go for, esp. if you have absolutely no idea what field you want to go into. At the beginning, I was fully convinced that I would do a residency in either Internal Medicine or Pediatrics, and then subspecialize in a particular organ system, and even I ended up not doing either one of those fields, as convinced as I thought I was initially. For example, if youâre already interested in a surgical specialty, and that particular med school more emphasizes primary care (just as an example), and you see their match list**s/b tend to match very few people into surgical specialties from that school, one shouldnât be surprised that itâs more difficult to get into those type of residencies coming out of those schools. Thatâs information that is pertinent when youâre deciding among med schools. Noticing certain trends is important, while fixating on one particular personâs match or a particular yearâs match is not.
As I have mentioned in the UMKC thread, part of the problem, is that parents and applicants have huge difficulty properly interpreting or drawing proper conclusions from match lists, even when it comes to the matched institutions. You do sort of need a trained eye, although you can see USWNR rankings, Doximity rankings, as well as the geographic distribution. Youâre seeing a finished product, without looking at the entire maze and self-selection process that occurs to get there. Thereâs a difference between Hopkins (Osler), Hopkins (Bayview), and Hopkins (Sinai). Thereâs a difference between UCSF in SF and UCSF in Fresno. But like so many other things, itâs one data point, although an important one. Same with average board scores. Itâs one data point. You usually want to put all those data points together to make a calm, rational, informed decision.
Just FYI, at the traditional applicant level (where college students apply as college seniors), students ask for match lists all the time before making final matriculation decisions. In programs like these in which you commit to both, I donât see how it would be any different, to at least know what youâre getting and what youâre compromising on, if at worst, you ended up staying at the med school that is part of the program (assuming being able to apply out is even an option). At my program, it really isnât as we tend to take out quite a few prerequisites and the MCAT to be able to graduate in 6 years). In the UMKC thread, I always bring up this set of questions from the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) aptly titled, 35 Questions I Wish I had Asked: https://dornsife.usc.edu/assets/sites/1/docs/advising/prehealth/New_Logo-35_Questions.pdf, which I think is pertinent to all BA/MD applicants. One of their questions talks about match lists (#33).
The honest truth is very few of us will be in the lucky position of being able to select among acceptances to combined programs like Northwestern HPME, Brown PLME, Rice/Baylor Med Scholars, Pitt GAP, Case Western PPSP, etc. Anyone who has that #firstworldproblem is truly blessed. Even for the most stellar of applicants in terms of class rank, GPA, Curriculum Vitae, etc. getting an acceptance to these specific programs many times is a crapshoot (http://grammarist.com/usage/crapshoot/). For many people (although it may not be apparent on CC), many are choosing among several lower-tier Bachelor/MD options, or choosing between a lower-tier Bachelor/MD program vs. doing the traditional route.
Often times, Iâve seen students tend to NOT REALIZE what they are actually compromising on (all programs have compromises, it only varies by degree/how much), until itâs too late, or they get to a point where they have no choice but to finish. As @texaspg alluded to, this tends to happen more in programs in which students donât officially take the MCAT, and to where the path is more accelerated â usually in the 6 or 7 year programs. Thus focusing just on short term goals, usually isnât an option here, like it is for 8 year programs. I want students to feel confident regardless of their decision, even if they step away and say, âYou know what, Iâm not going to do any of those combined programs I got acceptances to, because I just donât feel comfortable making such a locked commitment to that particular undergrad/med school already,â and not later feeling guilty or on âwhat could have beenâ â both of which are huge and real motivators as to why people select these programs initially. Iâve seen too many real-life instances in which people are completely let down by their Bachelor/MD program due to unrealistic expectations, lack of life experience, or not seeing those compromises early on before going into their particular combined program and for medicine in general. And not to scare people, but Iâve seen the mental health repercussions others have experienced that can result from that disconnect. I donât want someone to end up in a position like this: http://â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â â /threads/is-there-any-way-i-can-transfer-medical-schools.1175960/
Itâs not the middle-tier med schools that concern me as much (although many times the very large tuition does - i.e. GWU). For example, Ohio State used to have a combined program called MAP (Medical Admissions Pathway). Itâs a great strong middle-tier med school and I would never advise someone to turn it down. Itâs the lower/bottom tier medical schools that I am more concerned about. Now, if a person goes through the traditional route and ends up at that school, to me, thatâs way different than compromising way early on in the process as a 17/18 year old, as often they do this without having all the puzzle pieces in hand to make rational comparisons. Often, the drive and smarts of that 17/18 year older who frequents CC is much greater at baseline than your average premed and likely would have gotten into a stronger school with better financial aid, which then affects the later steps. That being said there will ALWAYS be some subjectivity in this decision making process, but there is also objective data as well, which can be pertinent.
I think weâll just have to cordially agree to disagree. I also donât want students to get mired in the weeds in terms of residency/fellowship either, but I do think looking at match lists, in general, over several years and just seeing general trends, is helpful and is a data point just like any other. I considered that as part of doing the homework, as you called it. Obviously the best is to talk to a combined student(s) in that program, but thatâs not always possible, and in the end, it is your decision.
@Roentgen I donât mean this offensively at all and maybe I am incorrect. But, isnât UMKC a âlow-tierâ medical school? I do agree with you that some programs are extremely overpriced such as you mentioned GWU and also BU.
@1CRYZX, no offense taken by me at all, but yes, you are correct, if weâre separating medical schools into top-tier, middle-tier, and lower-tier categories, UMKC is a lower-tier medical school, as is NEOMED, although both are 6 year combined programs after high school, or at least NEOMED used to be, until very recently.
Yes, BU is another one that is way overpriced, in terms of its educational pricetag, although it is in Boston, with Tufts and Harvard close by, in terms of available research opportunities, which BU does have as well. Definitely not a top-tier med school by any means.
@Roentgen So I think in the right circumstance a âlow tierâ medical school is fine. Say you live near UMKC and also got into GWU. I think it would make sense to choose the UMKC program because of the cost and proximity to home. Good research for certain in BU but over $500k for 7 years? That can amount to a lot of debt.
@1CRYZX, are you referring to an in-state student who lives near KC? Just as a comparison, Mizzou, Missouriâs state flagship which used to have the combined Bachelor/MD Conley Scholars Program but no longer does (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/med-school-to-stop-pre-admission-plan/article_438ff87d-7468-51a8-a956-c749d3394b12.html), although they do still have the Bryant Scholars Program (rural pipeline program) for high school students: http://medicine.missouri.edu/ahec/pre-admissions.html, is a very solid middle-tier medical school, with med school tuition at same price per year as UMKC, if not a little bit lower.
But even then, I think it really depends on what your particular specialty goals are, the match lists if you compare Mizzou to UMKC, itâs no question that Mizzou has better match lists both in terms of specialty spread and institutions matched at. Same with GWU. If money is no object for you then the price comparison between GWU and UMKC is moot, and if those are your only 2 choices, then GWU is the better pick, although there may be some psychological & family support benefit by going to med school very close to home if you were to choose UMKC.
Oh, BU is definitely not worth that level of pricetag even for that research availability, taking into account the loan interest on that amount. Iâm just saying that people may be initially attracted to the combined program there due to its location and say even though theyâre getting no financial aid support, at least theyâre getting that added research even for a middle tier med school, and yes, I would agree that that level of debt of 500 K + accruing interest is nothing to sneeze at.
@Roentgen Yes I am hypothetically referring to an in state student that lives within a couple hours drive of KC.
@Roentgen Since you mentioned potential 500K total cost for BS/MD programs, may I ask if the traditional route could be any cheaper? As I understand, as a high schooler from a solid middle class family, it is very hard to get much relieve from financial aid. So in a traditional 4+4 route, a student can also easily spend 250K on undergraduate and another 250K for medical school, if the student goes to private schools.
@dadofd
Depends on the situation. Schools tend to give much more merit aid to students not doing a BS/MD program. And med schools could again give (depending on the situation) more aid to traditional applicants.
Those who have attended Brownâs ADOCH (A Day on College Hill) please share the event highlights of PLME.
Any comments about the location will be helpful.
@HS2DirectMed, Please post your stats before you ask for information⊠Now that admissions are over, information you share here will be helpful for future BS/MD applicantsâŠ
@dadofd, the traditional route definitely can be much cheaper in terms of total cost, but that varies a lot depending on which institution youâre going to and what their tuition is and how much scholarship they give for thed regular 4 years of undergrad. There are some BS/MD programs that do give some merit aid (more at the undergrad level). It is absolutely not necessary to go to a private school for undergrad if the end goal is to get into medical school.
@1CRYZX @Roentgen Thanks for your answers!
@HS2DirectMed you have been accepted to A LOT of the programs, your credential must be amazing. Please post it and share with us your reflection.
@dadofd, to add on to what I said, I would have definitely gone to our public state flagship university (and was actually fully prepared to do so, with no problems), if I had not made it into the 6 year combined program. I didnât apply to any Ivy League universities, as I donât think I would have made it in quite honestly, and donât think I would have gotten enough financial aid (grants, scholarships that donât have to be paid back) to justify or be able to make up the difference. Itâs sort of an enduring rule of thumb to spend more money on the graduate/professional side of things if you can, rather than the undergrad.
Hi, Iâm a relatively new member on this thread. Iâm deciding between the UMiami 7 year and Case PPSP right now. For UMiami, I received a full tuition scholarship so I will only have to pay about 15K per year for undergrad but for Case Western I will have to pay about 32K per year for undergrad. I think Caseâs med school is about 10K more per year too. I was wondering if any of you had any advice? Which one would you choose?