Problems with daughter

<p>I have very strong concerns about your daughter’s mental/emotional health, and worry, frankly, that something very bad could happen here, that she might harm herself even. That is my immediate and intuitive response to your posts. </p>

<p>I know you are a caring, concerned Dad so please take my comments in that spirit.</p>

<p>She has done many courses at community college, but the first two years of engineering and math classes at a top university would have a much more rigorous preparation than cc for upper class courses. She missed out on that preparation, right? But is blaming herself.</p>

<p>Honestly, you seem intent on keeping her at this top school, where she probably should not have gotten in in the first place. People think about getting in to a top school, but forget that the work is more difficult once you get in. Did you and/or your wife and/or your daughter focus on prestige (in face of extended family as you mentioned, perhaps?) when she applied to this school? Your daughter (and anyone else) needs to forget about prestige and think about survival, and I mean that literally. She may continue to feel like a failure at this school and this kind of depression can be dangerous.</p>

<p>Taking 16 credits of summer school is absurd in this situation. One of my kids has major health issues and is taking ONE summer class to catch up. We discussed two, and decided that with the intensity of summer school, one was enough. Now, your daughter does not have health issues but is seriously stressed, and her psyche should get a rest. That kind of pressure may push her over the edge. NOT worth it in terms of what this might do to her.</p>

<p>She has now been told that the entire course of her life depends on how she does on exams next week. If she is not feeling prepared or able, how will she react to this pressure? Again, my sense is that she may be in danger. I cannot say that strongly enough.</p>

<p>Obviously, she should not be in engineering. She does not have the preparation or the talent in this particular subject. But where did she get ideas about the prestige of this, or the idea that this was the only sure way to make a living (and I am NOT saying from you!)? Try to emphasize that school is a time for learning and not stress salary or career. She may need some education from someone about how the employment market actually works, and that it takes some wandering to find a path. This kind of rigid focus often happens with med school too: it reflects a lack of sophistication and/or excessive need for certainty I think.</p>

<p>She is 23 and at a residential college. The social consequences of being older and a transfer student have not been mentioned. She must feel out of step in many ways. This can be a major thing that noone has brought up. What does she do when everyone is partying and hooking up etc? Does she feel older and more mature than others? Has she made friends?</p>

<p>Has your daughter ever been diagnosed with ADHD, depression, learning issues, anxiety? With her history, the bitter divorce and lack of connection with her mother, some conflict with you, an almost compulsive stubbornness, and the academic failures, there is something deeper going on in this picture that you may not be willing to look at. Again, I feel that her literal survival depends on you looking at it, and helping her get some help.</p>

<p>If she sees a mental health counselor and talks about what is going on, it is possible that the academic record could be wiped clean. Colleges will do that when there is a documentable problem going on. Depression would be one of these problems.</p>

<p>Once the record is clean, if that is possible, or even if it is not, I strongly feel your daughter needs to leave this school. Trying to do 16 credits this summer to earn a grant and save you money will be incredibly destructive. Tell her you don’t care if she is at this school. Is it worth her life? Tell her she does not need to be an engineer to support herself. Most importantly, tell her that her well-being is most important right now and that she deserves some relief before making decisions for the future. She needs help, not judgment (and again, I know you are being kind)></p>

<p>At her age, there are many, many ways to get an education and degree. She is, however, at a decision point about how to do it, because most schools have a requirement that you do 30-45 credits at their school to graduate. Many cc students can automatically go to a state university. There are online degrees of high caliber, and “low residency” programs which require brief attendance followed by independent work with an advisor. There are countless continuing education and adult learner programs. She would be with people her own age who have similar backgrounds and histories.</p>

<p>She feels like a failure and is weeping and stressed. She needs to leave the school and engineering. But she needs sensitive help from someone at the college first. If I were you, I would call a dean or someone appropriate and explain the situation. In our experience, a call like that from a parent can bring expert intervention immediately. Tell your daughter you are going to do this, , so that you are not breaching trust with her, and tell her that she DESERVES some relief.</p>

<p>I hope I am not right in my intuitive response, but this situation, to me, adds up to a very serious threat in terms of emotional well-being and I feel afraid for your daughter right now. Ask yourself, if depression could lead her to a very bad place, whether this school and this major are worth that kind of suffering. Help her find someone to really deal with the roots of the problems (not the surface symptoms) and open her eyes to the very real possibilities that exist for her at such a young age. Good luck.</p>

<p>ps On another thread, posters said that actually cc classes did prepare their kids for upper level engineering classes…it depends on what classes were taken there.</p>

<p>Person at 23 is an adult. She is basically on her own with her own goals, plans…I am not sure at all how anybody can make plans for them at this age.</p>

<p>A young adult in crisis needs intervention, whether 18 or 25. It is okay for a parent to give things a nudge by calling someone at the college. The college cannot give information back, but the parent can give information to the college. After that, it is up to the daughter what to share with the parent(s). It may be that the Dad does not have full information. My sense is there are missing pieces to this picture, and that concerns should extend beyond academics right now.</p>

<p>blossom wrote (pt #3)

I would like to add that at age 23, I would have had this discussion even before she went away to college. I know OP didn’t agree with blossom’s point #3 about constantly talking about 9K. But I do agree with blossom that the problem is not the money per se, it is the fact the D at age 23 is still not taking responsibility for her life. When she fails, she has her dad to pick up the pieces, and Dad feels a bit used and abused. This is not a good long term relationship.</p>

<p>OP’s D has 4 AAs, she can get a job to support herself, maybe take some college courses. If she is able to get good grades then I would help out again. But not now. I wouldn’t pay for the summer school, it’s throwing good money away. Get yourself a new car.</p>

<p>After reading, seems like the most likely issue is, as you stated, she painted herself into a corner bragging about the school and major but cannot cut it and doesn’t want to be embarrassed when everyone finds out. This is not something I would pump a dime into - I would make her own up to it, deal with the “talk” and go to a more realistic school in a more suited major.</p>

<p>Learning this lesson will be tough but valuable - and ultimately, she will get where she needs to be and your money will not go wasted.</p>

<p>What worries me a bit about this whole situation is that OP’s D seems to be struggling in a major that she doesn’t enjoy, doesn’t excel at and doesn’t really seem to be cut out for, all for ‘bragging’ rights or the possibility of a higher salary than … who? </p>

<p>I have four kids - three older who have all graduated college. My oldest, my smartest, my whiz kid majored in English Lit and rec’d a MFA in poetry. My second son is a chemical engineer. he spent 3 years at CC before transferring to a UC and it was in his JR year of college at the UC that he realized he really loved engineering and had a knack for it. My 31 year old D decided to go for the bucks - literally. She chose an accounting major and is a CPA. She went to cc and then transferred to local Cal State. Guess who is making the ‘big’ bucks out of the three? Yes, ‘D’ is. She turned out to be the real ‘whiz’ kid and is currently at age 31 a CFO at 20 million company making over $120K a year. Poet son became a web programmer and he too is doing quite nicely. Engineer son graduated out of college and landed a fairly high paying job ($60) right off the bat - an advantage of engineering degree if you can get a job. But he also spent a year laid-off when his company took a hit. He is working again and making respectable money ~$70/annual as a chemical engineer at a very high-profile fortune 500, but is actually third to the CPA D and the poet turned/web-programmer S in salary.</p>

<p>My point with this long post is that all my of kids did what they loved and were good at - none of them went for prestige. All are doing quite well and I am a Mom who bursts with pride for my amazing kids who have been self-supporting since their mid 20s. </p>

<p>I think your D needs to change majors and do what she loves and it good at- period. She isn’t a failure at life, just at a hard major that isn’t right for her. It’s obvious she doesn’t ‘love’ engineering. It seems she is also someone who is influenced by the opinion of others (extended family) and trying to do something that she feels is prestigious as ‘perceived’ by others. Well to put it bluntly - screw that! She should major in what she is good at - no matter how it is ‘perceived’ by others.</p>

<p>Stanford currently has 40percent of it’d students studying engineering. They see it as a problem. Its like the glut of law students we had. </p>

<p>My niece changed majors many times, and ended up as a nurse and couldnt be happier</p>

<p>My d was a history major and works for a news show. </p>

<p>My younger daughter struggled in some of her schools core classes but pushed her way thru. Now she’s shining in classes she loves in her major.</p>

<p>The ops daughter needs to admit to herself she needs to find another major and kicking s dead horse isn’t goong to make it run.</p>

<p>Here’s a student perspective. I was majoring in EE. Here were my grades from one semester:
Programming C- ( I brought this grade from an F to a C in under a month; I’m actually very proud…)
Signals C
Physics C
Physics Lab C
Differential Equations B-
circuits D</p>

<p>As you can see, this was a disaster; I was depressed and quite angry at myself. I started to doubt my intelligence, and the worst part was the mental process of always comparing myself to others who did better, including a close/personal friend (this is something you should never do by the way, because you only get more depressed…). But then, my soul searching made me realize that I never really loved EE. I was under this illusion that EE is such a good major that will result in a great job. But its not that way… life is not about money; life is short and you must find something you are passionate about. Otherwise if you don’t have the passion in your endeavor, you will quit when the going gets hard. Whatever happens OP, failure is not a bad thing. It makes one redirect one’s efforts to pursue a new endeavor more aggressively.</p>

<p>compmom – You have written a post that says, much more eloquently, what I have been thinking. I’m concerned that this young woman is under unbelievable stress and needs to leave that university, not just the engineering program.</p>

<p>The Dad himself seems attached to the idea of the daughter staying in the high prestige school.</p>

<p>Rangerjoe - I think you are handling the situation perfectly. In your shoes I suspect that I would do the same. Good luck to you and your daughter.</p>

<p>

Yeah, that was an unwarranted bashing of cc’s on your part.</p>

<p>OP has stated that the courses D is taking are upper level, which puzzles me because if true then the “total lack of aptitude for engineering” should have evidenced itself long before this. D should have already taken Calculus I, II, III, and Differential Equations, Physics I and II, along with Statics and at least 2 of Strength of Materials, Thermodynamics, Linear Circuits, or Dynamics. </p>

<p>Most students survive or get weeded out in those first 2 years, not at the upper-class level.</p>

<p>From an online forum it is often the case that there are so many facets to a situation no one can really get a handle on the entire story. I do think the OP is really doing his best to give a clear picture of what is going on. He’s very frustrated and caught in the middle of an ongoing/unfolding situation so some information was not given in the initial post. I was an early poster. If I had all the information that the OP has now shared I can assure you I would have responded differently. We have to assume that the OPs DD may still not have disclosed the entire situation with her father, be this about visiting advisors, the extent of study habits (or not), or the very real possibility of depression (which several posters have urged the OP to consider above all else).</p>

<p>I can honestly appreciate your/the OPs frustration over paying for summer school. I guess I don’t understand why at that point you didn’t just tell her no, regardless of the major. Plenty of kids go away to school, tank, and come home because mom & dad aren’t going to finance another year. They go to Plan B. Academic success is a reasonable expectation, again regardless of the major. Your DD chose to drop classes leaving her short of required credits. She was responsible for knowing the consequences for doing that. You absolutely had the option to say no to summer school, which really just extends something you don’t support in the first place. </p>

<p>I’m not sure why it’s so important your DD stay at this school. If she can’t transfer somewhere else because of her academic record perhaps it’s time for her to work for a while. You’ve stated she has four AA degrees (I have no understanding why she has four, but that’s another thread I guess). Certainly she can get an entry level job somewhere and start working toward independence.</p>

<p>If you find she is suffering from depression (which I feel strongly should be investigated), then all bets are off and this should be the first concern. Have your ex-wife help arrange a medical leave of absence through the Dean of Students (?) and let your DD take time to take care of herself. Decisions about what major, what school, etc., can all wait.</p>

<p>What courses would the D take over the summer? With all those credits from the cc, she should have most if not all of her gen ed’s out of the way by now. When I transferred as a junior with a lot of credits, I only needed one additional gen ed course. Most upper division engineering courses are not offered in the summer, and there is no way in Halifax that anyone short of GENIUS would take 16 credits worth of them if they were, especially if one is already not doing well.</p>

<p>Sylvan, I did not “bash” cc’s. Believe me. I have kids who have attended and am a fan. In some subjects, students lose credits from cc when transferring to another school. Like I said, it depends.</p>

<p>I took the time to post what I saw on another thread to reverse what I wrote and really didn’t deserve the chastisement.</p>

<p>I’m with Compmom. There is no way the typical student coming out of our local CC would be capable of picking up a demanding engineering program at a competitive university without at least a semester or two to get up to speed. Yes, there’s the occasional math prodigy who starts at CC because he or she is only 15 and the parents don’t want the kid living in a dorm, or other outliers. That’s not a knock our our CC— and of course, not a knock on the one OP’s D attended since I have no idea how rigorous the courses are and how aligned the curriculum is for engineering.</p>

<p>But even the advisors at our local non-flagship State U campus know how to pick a balanced course load for kids transferring in from CC-- and it most likely wouldn’t include two tough math courses in one semester for a kid who might not be the strongest math student coming out of the gate. That’s not a knock- that’s reality. A kid with an AA degree in a STEM discipline from our CC would likely do fine in a BS program for nursing, education (especially if he or she was interested in teaching HS math or science), construction management, business. But not engineering without a transition period, both for course content AND to get acclimated to the workload. Not that the other departments don’t have heavy workloads, but what many kids fail to realize is that YOU CAN"T FALL BEHIND. Not for a week. You take off a weekend to see your friends, that means you’ll be hitting the books with all the other engineers into the wee hours all week to catch up. If you don’t, by the time you get to class you won’t understand a word. And that will put you even further behind the 8 ball.</p>

<p>

That may be true at some cc’s but you cannot make a general statement to that effect. We have no idea where op is, or what school XYZ is for that matter. What “get up to speed” courses would you be having them take? If the local cc has a pre-engineering curriculum, then it should be designed for transfer to at least the State University, as they are within the same education system. It would be like a middle school not preparing students for the high school down the block in the same district. </p>

<p>Whether it prepares you for Cornell is another matter, but then Cornell would be well aware of that and would most likely not accept you to begin with if they felt you were unprepared for their level (which is the case with some U’s).</p>

<p>Sylvan- I specifically stated the typical student coming out of OUR LOCAL CC.</p>

<p>But I surmise from the OP’s comments since the U is far away from home, that this is not a case of a local CC with a pre-engineering program preparing a kid for the local State U. And it’s not clear if a far away university has any insight into the preparation from a CC which is not in its own state.</p>

<p>I’m starting to feel for the D. Getting thrown into the deep end of the pool…</p>

<p>CCs vary SO much, it is unfair and difficult to generalize with any accuracy as to what “CCs” do and do NOT prepare any particular student for. In GENERAL, it would be true that MOST CCs with less rigorous and competititive curriculum MAY not adequately prepare MOST students for an uber-selective and uber-competitive U in an uber-competitive major.</p>

<p>That said, our D was able to get an adequate preparation at our local flagship CC to transfer to a very competitive U in an extremely competitive major–a few speedbumps along the road but otherwise an impressively good transition. She took most of the lower level GE courses at the CC & took mostly upper division courses at the U after transfer.</p>