Problems with daughter

Parents Forum
81

<p>DH teaches physics at a local CC that has a pre-engineering program that gets students into the flagship U. Those that survive the CC program usually transition well into the state U, but the pre-eng is set up as a weeder program for our state U’s, not for something OOS.</p>

<p>I think your D is way out of her element and it’s time for the “come to Jesus” talk. You should not be taking money out of your retirement funds for the summer school. She can take a leave of absence, seek out career counseling, change her major, enroll in a school nearer home. I sense you see this as all or nothing so I think involvement of a third party may help you and she sort through it all and come up with a more workable plan than just throwing money at the current fire.</p>

82

<p>It also seems to me that taking money out of your retirement for a heavy load in summer school that will be very costly in many ways for both of you is not the best way to handle the current situation. Some new insights from professionals at the school on career advising as well as FAid/Merit Aid are needed to figure out ALL the options and which ones are the most promising. Just locking horns between you & D is a recipe for more drama and a lose-lose proposition.</p>

83

<p>compmom #61 ~ that response. Wow. Just brought tears to my eyes.
Everyone has given such excellent advice. I knew I was in the right place.
Thanks everyone.</p>

<p>I am not attached to the idea of my daughter staying in the top school. I only know how genuinely happy she was to be there and now … this. I don’t care whether she stays in the school or not. I just want her to be happy. At the same time, I want her to be sure that leaving the school is the right decision. She can always change her major. Once she leaves this school, she will not get back in. Such is the competition, she may not get in anywhere.</p>

<p>16 units is a lot of units for summer school but not once has an advisor said to my daughter, this is too much work for you to be taking on. I told her myself, I think that’s too much and she says, ‘No, I’ve got it under control.’</p>

<p>This is a life altering decision. If she wants to stay at that school, she is going to have to get through 16 units over the summer. If she doesn’t get through those units, she is back home with no prospects.</p>

<p>I think that I am going to strongly suggest a meeting with an advisor in which both my daughter and I are present. I need to come up with a plan to at least put everything on hold while we figure out where to go rather than just dropping out without a plan. If we can get the slate wiped clean, as one commenter suggested, and enroll in a better suited major, that would be the way to go I think. Also career counselling. Brilliant suggestion. </p>

<p>Yes, my daughter has deep insecurities. She thinks that everyone is better/smarter/prettier than she is but of course that’s not true. It’s just how she sees herself. Unfortunately, her denial of the true facts, including the fact that she is not engineer material, clouds her judgment. She is talented and smart and can most certainly be successful. She needs to find out where she needs to be.</p>

<p>Orbit196 #69 ~ What did you change your major to from EE?
Thanks for posting those grades. I have been doing quite a bit of research over the past 24 hours and I have reached a stark conclusion that seems to be 100% certain: if a person is not cut out for engineering, they will not make it.</p>

<p>sylvan8798 #73 ~ My daughter has completed Calculus II. Currently failing Linear Algebra. I will say that most of her grades in a math class have been C grade, some of them D grade which resulted in her having to take the CC class again. One, maybe two, have been B. No As in math.</p>

<p>Differential Equations, Strength of Materials, Thermodynamics, Linear Circuits, or Dynamics … classes not taken yet.
Physics I and II … passed with a C grade.</p>

<p>You raise an excellent point regarding the 16 units of summer school. She will have to take 16 units of completely unrelated classes (sociology, history, etc) just to have those credits on her record, even though they are not needed and irrelevant to her major. There is a computer science class as well. In other words, 4 classes.</p>

<p>Is 16 units at summer school an impossible task?? I need someone to tell me so that I can act on that fact alone.</p>

<p>If the general consensus here is that 16 units is crazy impossible, then I need to stop this situation immediately.</p>

<p>blueiguana #74 ~ I do believe that a medical leave of absence may well be in the cards.
I may have given the impression that I want my daughter to stay at this school but I guess I am not doing a good job of conveying that I don’t want her to completely drop out and lose this once in a lifetime opportunity to graduate eventually from XYZ. She needs counselling for mental health and career choice. She needs to come home for a while on a LOA and get her mental health back. Thanks for a compassionate response.</p>

<p>blossom ~ My daughter didn’t take any sort of pre-engineering program at CC. I really wish that she had but it is possible that the CC didn’t offer such a thing. The school she is in is a top university. She is indeed in the deep end.</p>

<p>How did she get in? There was a loophole and that is all I can say. Nothing illegal by the way. Just a mistake on the university’s part that they had to honor.</p>

84

<p>None of us know enough about your D nor the U to know or advise you or your D as to whether 16 units (4 courses) is an appropriate load for your D’s summer. The U needs to have someone sit down with you & D to figure this out. THEY have much more info and much more at stake in helping figure this out with you. They can help you & D figure out courses that might be better suited for her and whether the 16 credits needs to all be taken this summer or if she could possibly take a leave of absence while she gets career counseling, or if there are ANY other possible options so that she and you are not painted into a corner.</p>

<p>Hang in there. If things don’t work out, she can probably work her way back to her in-state U/college or find a program at CC that appeals–perhaps a medical tech, respiratory therapist, RN, or many, many other science or other fields.</p>

<p>Many, many of those in engineering have always loved math & easily were getting As in physics & calculus. Those are the folks who are in the field and remain in it. Of course there may be others as well, but many kids like my S are in it because math, physics, CS are fun and easy to them.</p>

85

<p>Strongly consider medical leave for this semester. If it’s possible, it can in essence “wipe the slate” clean. Discuss with a dean or advisor various options to “save this semester” so that she would have the option of continuing at XYZ at some point in time. (Obviously this is a discussion with or done by your daughter.)</p>

<p>As for 4 courses over the summer, if there were 2 sessions so that one could do 2 courses per session, then it might be doable, i.e. be less stressful. This is a general statement. I don’t know if it would apply for your daughter. </p>

<p>As for unanticipated cost, in skimming the thread, I don’t recall seeing the idea of a student loan.</p>

<p>Even just skimming the thread, I feel the crisis for both you and your daughter. I hope you both will be able to manage it soon.</p>

86

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe said already- I didn’t read whole thread- are you really risking $9k? As I see it, she needs to make up these credits to graduate either way. So assuming she passes thsi time around, its part of what she needs to graduate (even if she changes majors, I’d assume these particular courses would count no?). So the actual risk is room and board…she needs to eat no matter where she lives, so really we are talking cost of 2 months of dorm? That doesn’t seem like a big cost just to give her one more chance (and which will likely tell her in a strong way what she should do next). </p>

<p>Sometimes students just aren’t prepared going in but this might be what she needs to get back on board. I think its worth a try.</p>

87

<p>“Once she leaves this school, she will not get back in.”</p>

<p>Couldn’t she take a leave of absence? Typically students don’t have to re-apply to return. Or are you just referring to the financial aid she won’t get as a returnee?</p>

<p>“not once has an advisor said to my daughter, this is too much work for you to be taking on.”</p>

<p>I don’t think you really know that. I’m not even saying that your D is necessarily leaving out pieces of the story when she tells you what’s happened. She may have a biased recall of the conversation that took place, especially the parts that don’t conform to what she wanted to hear. Speaking as a counselor myself, students sometimes take away just a fraction of what I say and, as far as I can tell, do not hear the rest.</p>

88

<p>

Linear Algebra and what? Calculus III, I assume?

Were these the core engineering classes she dropped out of? These may not have been offered at the community college, but they are not “upper division” classes. They are sophomore courses, and if D hasn’t taken them yet, she will need AT LEAST 3 more years at the University in order to finish an engineering degree.</p>

89

<p>Selective hearing and selective memory is one reason that the human race continues to exist. Many of us are able to tune in and out as needed. Of course, this can lead to problems of exactly what happened and was said, which is why it is useful to have a written summary/confirmation of important points. As parents, we get second-hand (if we’re lucky) info about what was done/said/suggested. </p>

<p>To get the actual info, we need to be looped into the conversation/dialog in some meaningful way–teleconference, videochat, skype, face to face, or something, WITH someone from school with authority as well as D.</p>

90

<p>

Then I assume your local CC doesn’t have a pre-engineering program. That doesn’t make it the fault of the cc, as a student spending 2 years at a high-end LAC without a pre-engineering program would also not be "capable of picking up a demanding engineering program at a competitive university without at least a semester or two to get up to speed. "</p>

91

<p>Here is chapter one of my kids story. </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1263136-parents-engineering-freshman.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1263136-parents-engineering-freshman.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

92

<p>To review: your D finds herself not grasping the course material at this top school which she was somehow pulled into by means other than merit, does not have sufficient aptitude for the subject, has fallen behind, has not achieved the grades in the classes needed to continue, is emotionally wrung out and exhausted, is in danger of losing her financial aid, feels inadequate and outclassed, and yet she still harbors fantasies of a career in engineering and believes that somehow, somewhere, pulling off 16 credits in a summer session will save the dream. (I can’t even wrap my brain around taking that much credit in so short a time unless I already knew the material cold and was just going through the formalities to log the credit.) </p>

<p>Even if your D should prevail over the summer and then somehow manage to eke out the minimum passing grades necessary to earn an engineering degree, what kind of job prospects can she expect? Will it pay off in the big bucks she thinks is out there for a barely-made-it engineering degree holder? All that money and effort wasted, when it could have gone towards something she actually enjoyed and even excelled at. </p>

<p>My two cents worth is with those posters who suggested that she should take a year off to fully reassess her situation, explore other interests, heal from the stress and hurt of this past year and start to seek out other career options. Unless your D is pursuing a major she not only likes is both willing and happy to put in the required work, she is wasting her time at this top-notch school, reputation notwithstanding. But you knew all this already. </p>

<p>Your D should then be made to see the wisdom of selecting a major (that is not engineering) at a school more in line with her true credentials and which would accept as many of her CC credits as possible so she can get a 4 year degree in something. </p>

<p>I feel for your D, but she needs to find a new dream. This current one is proving to be a nightmare. You know it, I think even she knows it but is too scared, or too stubborn to admit failure. She needs to get over this; people change direction all the time. What I wonder is how she got it into her head that she was made for engineering.</p>

93

<p>“compmom – You have written a post that says, much more eloquently, what I have been thinking.” - Ditto.</p>

<p>OP - I like your idea to meet with the advisor. It’s possible that your D had just gotten some rubber-stamp course approvals.</p>

94

<p>Dad-- hugs to you. It’s not easy being a parent when things are going well, so I think all of us here are sending you good parent karma- since it surely stinks when things are not going so well.</p>

<p>My final (I hope helpful) tip- try to dial back language like “once in a lifetime opportunity” or “if she leaves she can never go back”. For sure it’s adding to your own anxiety; I’ll bet you your D has picked up on as well and it’s adding to her anxiety. And guess what- these apocalyptic pronouncements are neither helpful nor accurate. Young adults don’t always grasp what we battered and gray adults do- when god closes a door he opens a window (or some such metaphor, choose your deity).</p>

<p>There is no such thing as a once in a lifetime opportunity. There are no perfect spouses, or colleges, or cars, or vacations, or jobs. If your D is both feeling the academic pressure (considerable) and having the dialogue in her head that she’s about to blow a once in a lifetime opportunity, surely that is preventing her from seeing facts clearly. Maybe she’s harbored a thought that she’d like to be a nurse practitioner-- oh but no, once in a lifetime university doesn’t have a nursing school. etc. So how can she possibly concede that engineering is not for her if this is a once in a lifetime opportunity? Who gives up on a once in a lifetime opportunity?</p>

<p>Part of your D’s transition to adulthood will be recognizing that even hard work and the old college try sometimes doesn’t get you what you want. So you either become a burnt out and frustrated adult- and I’m sure she’s met some of those-- or you adjust what you want and figure out a plan to get it. And then be both proud of the effort and satisfied with the outcome.</p>

<p>But dial back the language. Who knows what once in a lifetime opportunity she’ll find if she transfers to a college closer to home, which is both affordable and offers a bunch of programs that she’d excel in??? That doesn’t require you raiding your retirement for or having her in tears during exams? Or having to be constantly reminded that she was accepted through a loophole and was woefully unprepared for the work?</p>

95

<p>RangerJoe, You sound like a great Dad, and please know that that seems to be a common feeling on here for you.</p>

<p>I just also want to say, and this is after many experiences with three kids with their own set of challenges, that there are no disasters in life. That is something we toss around in our house, and we have experienced its truth in so many ways.</p>

<p>I think the original saying might have been “There are no disasters in life, only opportunities.” Or something like that. The reality that we have glimpsed, perhaps too many times, is that when things are really really bleak, and some sort of action is necessary, that the outcome is usually better than it might have been without the crisis. If that makes sense.</p>

<p>With proper help, this situation can be turned around and your daughter, and you, can be on a better path. Believe it. And if you believe it, your daughter will too.</p>

96

<p>Joe, I just want to echo the encouragement and validation of your efforts. Your care and support shine through every post. It’s understandable that at this moment, with finals pending and coming from such a low place, she’s unable to honestly face these issues. She’s fighting to simply control what’s happening today and what seems rational to her ahead because that’s all she knows and can muster. But it sounds like she may have already started the anguishing emotional process of working through the loss of a dream–when I read your descriptions of her words and behavior, there are classic signs of denial, bargaining (the summer plan is a recipe for disaster in my book), anger and despair (the roommate’s call is a huge red flag). The despair is terribly worrisome, and I am relieved to hear you will go to her ASAP. Although you may meet resistance, I predict, based on how you’ve described your relationship, she will find your loving presence a relief that allows her to let go, come clean with what’s been too hard to face and allow you to be by her side to problem-solve preserving what she can at XYZ, regardless of whether she ever returns, and then focusing on getting healthy before plotting future paths. </p>

<p>There are times when we all need someone to lean on. She’s so fortunate you are there for her. All the best as you continue the journey. </p>

<p>Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk</p>

97

<p>There are so many times when there is no good solution with kids. If there is nothing more you can do, my advice to is to pay exactly what you have to and/or are willing to do and leave it up to your DD. There is a point when one puts ones hands up. </p>

<p>I sadly had to do so with one of mine, with the full understanding that it could have gone wrong. I told him that I was paying for the last time unless he got the grades, and I was specific about the thresholds and he also had to stayout of trouble. Otherwise, college at that time was just not for him, IMO and DH and I were DONE. Whether it was laying it out this way or whether he finally got it together and was going to anyways, he did make the cut. But I was finally at the point where if he did not, it was not worth it for us to subsidize him, regardless of the potential consequences. Everyone has a break point in this area and some are higher than others.</p>

98

<p>

</p>

<p>Just chiming in to say that I am pretty sure you can’t even do this at my U without getting an adviser to waive a credit limit that is substantially lower than this, and they will only do that for exceptional students. I am pretty sure the maximum number of summer credits we can take without special approval is 9. Things vary by school, but I would not just assume 16 is going to be okay because your D told you so. This would be a good thing to discuss with the adviser if you do indeed meet with one, which I think is a great idea. I think there must be a break in communication here… either your D is not asking the the adviser about these things, or she is not telling you about his responses.</p>

99

<p>16 sounds excessive…especially considering most summer schools tended to limit you to 2 full-time courses per summer session max without special permission…whether it’s two 3 credit courses per 6 week summer session at Columbia U…or 2 8 credit courses at Harvard U’s 12 week summer session. </p>

<p>The one older classmate who attempted to pull 12 credits in one summer session at Harvard almost had a nervous breakdown near the end because he ended up being overwhelmed by the workload despite being superbly prepared with an Abitur from a great Gymnasium(German College Prep high school) and having already been admitted to Oxbridge. </p>

<p>I took 8 credits that summer and felt comfortable…but wouldn’t have wanted to take more than that. However, I already had 2 years worth of undergrad under my belt at that point.</p>

100

<p>Dad, I didn’t read all the posts intervening between your initial description and my comment, so forgive me if I’m restating what another poster has already suggested. I wonder if your daughter believes she has to be an engineer because right now there is so much emphasis on STEM career opportunities, especially for girls. This is wonderful if you’re cut out for it, but not so great if you’re not.</p>

<p>When I was in college in the 1970s, the ticket to the dream seemed to be med or pharmacy school, and since I was decent in math and loved science, I declared a biochemistry major. My parents were thrilled–everybody in my family has some kind of science or engineering career, and the conviction that “you need to do something practical” was (and continues to be) strong. However, as I got into the program, I hated it more and more. I could do OK academically with great effort but it was increasingly clear to me that my real talents lay elsewhere. The only classes I was enjoying were the ones I was taking “on the side” to fulfill my college’s distribution requirements in writing, language, etc. </p>

<p>It was tremendously helpful to me, at that juncture, to happen to encounter adults who had made successful lives in what I was really good at, as writers, journalists, and literature professors. Many of them were the parents of kids who had, like me, been accepted to a summer program in the humanities: they were artists, musicians, professors, therapists, etc. and had had different life experiences and career trajectories than my own parents. To my family’s horror I changed my major to English. My parents were quite correct that the career opportunities were much scarcer on the ground, but on the other hand, I was much better at the subject. I am now an English professor at a research university.</p>

<p>I think your daughter possibly needs to take time off, but possibly she needs to meet some people who don’t just say the standard, one-size-fits-all things about career success. Even in a recession, there are lots of ways to make a living and not everybody is cut out for the same path.</p>