<p>As for the accepting men at lower rates...at least at my school, men apply in much higher rates than women. Men were accepted at a 16% average and women at 20%.</p>
<p>Last summer we toured two notable southern LAC's with a fairly high Greek presence. We (the parents AND the kid) were not impressed when the tour guides (yes...both places) mentioned that the sororities and fraternities didn't have their parties on campus. They rented clubs in the downtown (both schools within a 10 minute drive of the colleges) for their events. Is this a way that colleges can say "not our domain"?</p>
<p>InterestedDad, what is your connection to the greek system?</p>
<p>Kelsey: </p>
<p>On the frat scene and male percentages at your school. Don't take this the wrong way because I think you go to a great school and I have multiple family members who love it. However, in academic circles, your school's reputation is a hard-drinking, frat-boy place. Read the Fiske Guide entry.</p>
<p>Of all the very top-ranked schools in New England, Brown and Wesleyan are the only two besides your school that even allow frats and, at both places, the frat membership is negligible (5%). Even looking at much less selective New England schools, there isn't one that even comes close to the level of frat participation at your school. In fact, the next most frat-dominated campus in New England has about one-fourth the frat participation.</p>
<p>Thumper:</p>
<p>On the off-campus parties at Calif. schools. From reading, this seems to be a prime component of risk management for fraternities that understand the fiscal risk and perceptual problems facing the Greek system. Most sororities and the smarter fraternities have gone to a a "dry house" policy. This does not mean that they don't drink. It means that they do not host "frat parties" on their property, exposing themselves to risk manangement liabilities. I would expect that this trend to be particularly strong in Calif, where the campus binge drinking culture is much lower than on the East Coast. The frats at the schools you visited are just being smart: transfering the risk to an outside 3rd party vendor: i.e. a rented club.</p>
<p>Well I'm wondering why the binge drinking culture is lower on the west coast than on the east coast? And isn't there more of a connection to binge drinking and sports rather than the Greek system? Someone did a study and wrote a book about that a few years ago. I remember because Northwestern was the only school in the Big 10 that still maintained high academic standards in spite of the sports. My guess is that you will find quite a different atmosphere of Greeks in a very sports oriented school as opposed to one that is not. Just thinking out loud!</p>
<p>I would like to second the question posed in post #163.</p>
<p>Well, I used googlescholar and found this:<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9069676&dopt=Citation%5B/url%5D">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9069676&dopt=Citation</a></p>
<p>Seems to me that frats are being "smart" in a short-sighted lawsuit risk management sense to move their drinking parties off-site, but they are being dumb in the overall sense of cutting down on the problems caused by their alcoholic excesses. Thumper described the rented halls in question as a 10 minute DRIVE from the colleges. Doesn't that raise a little red flag with anyone?</p>
<p>The concept of having frat parties outside of the house has got to be one of the dumbest I've heard. What's worse than a bunch of partiers who have been drinking? Answer: a bunch of partiers who have to drive home after drinking. A party in an on-campus house means that even if someone does drink too much - at least they can walk back home. </p>
<p>At my son's frat, they always have designated brothers who do not drink during the party. They are there to keep things under control and if necessary drive people home. For those who are steadfastly against frats, where would you rather have your kids go to party - an unregulate apartment party where likely everyone drinks, or a frat house that takes the responsibility to have designated non-drinkers to maintain order?</p>
<p>30% of students at my school are in the greek system, and it has been increasing the recent years.</p>
<p>Maybe I'm naive but I don't think they are renting halls just to avoid lawsuits. I would guess they are still liable since they are hosting the party. Some of the parties are probably annual parties. We had several annual dances and formals that were just the members and their dates that were held away from campus. Parties off-site also minimizes damage to the houses. There aren't usually big enough rooms in a house to host the size of some of the parties.
In terms of exclusivity, Greeks are far more inclusive now than they were when I was in college. Parties are usually open to anyone. I think I remember my nephew saying that at UW Madison they had to pay a cover charge to get in. </p>
<p>And while my link above makes a direct link between binge drinking and frats and sororities, I still maintain that it is not their sole focus and that you can find frats and sororities where there is less emphasis on it. I know of several fraternities and sororities on my campus that fit all the stereotypical images everyone has. Several out of about 30 houses.</p>
<p>TO the people that have parties off campus - for example, my college is a DRY CAMPUS. you can NOT have alcohol on campus - at ALL. we do have frat's and whatnot - but the frat houses are located off campus. they CAN have parties, but the cops can and will (sometimes) break them up, and if youve got people that are underage you can get in a lot of trouble. I know one frat stopped having parties for a full semester or two because they got in trouble and a very large fine. Maybe some of those schools you visited that mentioned frat's having parties off campus is because the campus is a dry campus.. Just a thought..</p>
<p>I have reread this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that posters that find themselves on opposite side of the discussion do not seem to talk about the same issue. </p>
<p>In one particular case, people quote the same sources and attempt to find different conclusions. It seems to me that the line of defense for the supporters of fraternities is to point towards their good deeds or use the line: "Look it is not us ONLY". It is obvious that the GLO are not the sole culprits of excessive drinking and deaths on campus. Yet, none of the supporters seems ready to accept the slightest culpability for their actions. </p>
<p>In another example, I posted a link to the greekcat.com website. I read it and came away shocked to read the LENGHTY and REPEATED reports of hazing, sexual abuses, lawsuits, and drinking. There were indeed responsible posts -mostly from the adults who maintain the site, but the tone of the site is pretty clear. </p>
<p>Yes, you can find drinking and hazing among other associations, especially among athletes. But pointing the finger towards others does not diminish in any way of shape the extensive role played by fraternities. In this thread, people have quoted the damning statistic that 80% of frat boys and girls ARE binge drinkers ... only to see the supporters pay no attention whatsover to the number, except to try to dispute the definition of binge drinking. How can anyone pretend that alcohol consumption is NOT the predominant activity is 80% of members are heavy drinkers -by any standards? </p>
<p>For what it is worth, here is AGAIN the source - the same use by Lischup to point the finger to athletes: </p>
<p>
[quote]
GREEK MEMBERSHIP AND BINGE DRINKING
Of Greek women who lived in sorority houses, 80% were binge drinkers and of Greek men who lived in fraternity houses, 86% were binge drinkers. Both genders in Greek societies out-drank their non-Greek counterparts. Only 35% of non-Greek women participated in binge drinking and 45% of non-Greek men participated in binge drinking (Wechsler, 1996).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What I do not see from any supporters is the simplest of acknowlegdment that the fraternities DO contribute to the growing problem and have DIRECTLY caused the death of fellow brothers. Again, it does not matter if they are not the sole responsible party: they play a HUGE role in facilitating and encouraging widespread drinking. </p>
<p>What I would also like to see is a formulation of ideas on how to change the behavior inside their own houses -as a start. Why is it so damn difficult to prohibit the distribution and use of alcohol, especially when facing the danger of closure of the chapters? Again, if the vocation of GLO is to be a social organization, they can do it without the liquor and other abusive practices. </p>
<p>If the majority of GLO are indeed NOT involved in drinking, why don't they start start supporting the prohibition of liquor and hazing practices. It would not be that hard to ostracize the "bad apples"!</p>
<p>Pointing the finger at yourself is a lot harder than pointing it at others.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Well I'm wondering why the binge drinking culture is lower on the west coast than on the east coast? </p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I don't know. My brother, the college professor, moved from school in the Cal State system to a comparable school in the SUNY system. He said that the difference in drinking cultures was shocking.</p>
<p>There are probably lots of reasons. However, one may be diversity. Weschler's research showed that college drinking increased with decreased ethnic diversity and with larger female populations -- the more white males, the stronger the drinking culture. With huge Hispanic and Asian-American populations, California schools tend to be very diverse.</p>
<p>Few California schools are truly residential in nature--most are commuter schools including many of the UC's. More isolated schools like Chico have plenty of drinking. They are also not located on college towns that grew with the school but were plunked down in some suburb for the most part. Not conducive to much party culture. I also think the ethnic makeup is an important factor. Asians just are not big partiers. Hispanics prefer weed and other drugs although they like a little beer.</p>
<p>xiggi, once again, i am going to say that nobody forced those people to drink. they were there on their own free will. whose fault is it that someone can't say no to the pressures around them? is it the fault of the people doing the pressuring? yeah they know its wrong, but it's not their fault that people gave in to it. they should not be offering the alcohol to minors, they should be responsible in telling people when to stop drinking, but at the same time if you are a minor you should know not to go there for the alcohol, and on top of that you should know if youre drunk or not, when to stop drinking. i've never been to a frat party, but i've been to bar's, and most of my friends will each have a beer or two and then they stop drinking.. theyre not out to get plastered. ive been to parties at friends houses where people have gotten completely plastered because they didn't realize their own limitations. and yes i took care of them and made sure they were alright. it's a learning experience. some people just don't learn quick enough, or die before they can learn their lesson. </p>
<p>so yes, i will admit that fraternities are helping to make this a huge problem by offering these parties, by giving alcohol to minors, it's like holding a bag of chocolate infront of a kid and telling him not to eat it. but the fraternities are not responsible for people giving in and eating that chocolate.</p>
<p>also, asian's DO like to party.. at least on the east coast :)</p>
<p>xiggi,
I did not point the finger at athletes. I raised the question and I also acknowledge that the link showed a direct correlation between frats and sororities. I know it is a problem. I just don't see the issue as black and white as I feel those that oppose the Greek system do. I know all of the issues you bring up are true and very legitimate concerns. I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. I am trying to present another point of view from an ACTUAL experience that is contrary to all of the negatives presented by people that have neither been in one or have sons or daughters in one.</p>
<p>Xiggi, how do you know who is an adult and who is not on the greekchat website. I found most of the posters to be horrified by the deaths and wanting to do something about it. I did not assume they were adults. Some of them sounded like officers to me.</p>
<p>"Greek members also believe that alcohol facilitates the brotherhood/sisterhood bonding process and enhances social activities." </p>
<p>I would like to see the internals on this because I think this is utter ********!</p>
<ul>
<li>
School spirits: alcohol and collegiate sports fans.
Nelson TF, Wechsler H.
Harvard School of Public Health, Department of Health and Social Behavior, 401 Perk Drive, PO Box 15678, Boston, MA 02215, USA.
<quote of="" copyrighted="" material="" snipped=""></quote></li>
</ul>
<p>Here is a study backing up the point I was "wondering about". I was not questioning athletes in particular. I just remember hearing someone talk on MPR about the correlation between binge drinking and schools with very competitive and highly attended sports. In particular they were talking about the Big 10.</p>