Stubborn daughter advice please!

Parents Forum
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<p>As a parent, I have to agree with jessiehl that trying to keep the student instate using the power of the purse is a plan doomed to fail, if that is the intent, and I am not sure that it is. That said, the parent should not support the student beyond his or her means. If that amount of college support is the amount of instate college tuition, then so-be-it.</p>

<p>How about this: Make the student attend a financial/college planning seminar and understand the reality of the situation. Take on this much debt (80K) and you will have this much monthly to pay off for this many years. Consider your expected salary ranges after college and understand clearly how the debt will impact your lifestyle and further educational goals. </p>

<p>Perhaps that approach will mimize the emotional nature of the conflict.</p>

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<p>Somehow I can't help but think "controlling" and supporting or rewarding are different. And different from punishing too. I think supporting a choice you believe in, but not one you don't believe in, is different from controlling. I also think being able to anticipate and discuss all this in junior high school is beyond "good enough" parenting. If I'm not mistaken, part of the problem arises from the daughter not having taken action earlier. If my child was demonstrating an interest in something I didn't think was great early enough to convince me it was a good investment, I might respond differently .</p>

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<p>The OP said her D has an SAT score of 1700. Looking at the Common Data Set for UNT for 2006, that score would likely put her in the mid-50% of accepted students (not sure since CDS is on the 1600 scale and OP reported her D's score on the 2400 scale). I think it's very unlikely that she would be awarded any merit aid.</p>

<p>One poster said the D will be able to borrow money on her own when she is 18. I don't believe that's true. An 18 y/o will still need a co-signer for a loan since she has no credit history.</p>

<p>I agree that the OP shouldn't try to keep her D closer to home just because they want her closer to home (and as a parent, I understand this desire very much!). But...the amount of money you are willing to spend has to have a cap on it. You don't have to put a second mortgage on the house or borrow against your 401k for D to attend an oos school just because that's what she wants. You have decided what amount is reasonable. That amount should be available to her even if she wants to go oos.</p>

<p>jessiehl, here is something you don't understand about kids and parents. If the OP tells her D, "Fine, go to Texas and take out $80k in loans", then when the D graduates, she will be full of recriminations. "How could you let me do that, Mom?! I was only 18, and you knew that I didn't know what I was doing!" Is that any worse than her hating her mom for being controlling? I don't think so. I think it's worse, because the consequences are so much greater.</p>

<p>Believe me, those who have spent time in the parental trenches know that you practically can't win the game of balancing controlling vs. encouraging independence. It's pretty easy to avoid the extremes, such as:
A. We'll only pay if you go to College X and major in Y, and
B. Go where ever your heart is leading you, dear. We'll beg, borrow (co-sign for you to borrow), and steal to make sure you can follow your dreams.
It's the areas between those two where it starts to get dicey.</p>

<p>One last thing...I don't think a girl who chooses a college because of a guy on the Internet needs psychological counseling. <em>Guidance</em> counseling? Probably. But not psychological....that's pretty normal behavior for a 17 y/o girl. </p>

<p>True confessions....my 21 y/o D <em>married</em> a guy she met on the Internet...on MySpace, no less. After talking online and then by phone for 4 months, they met in person, began a whirlwind mostly long-distance courtship, and were married 5 months later....after spending a grand total of 21 days actually together. So far, so good....they've been married 8 months now and are blissfully happy. Nevertheless, I don't recommend this as being the height of good sense.</p>

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<p>07DAD: "Owe" may not have been the best word there. I agree that after high school "owing" is problematic. I was brought up to believe that parents should pay for their children's tuition, to the extent that they can afford it, as something that was necessary to give the children a good start in the adult world, and that, with college costs being as high as they are, the children could not reasonably be expected to afford (I should note that my mom did not allow me to work outside the home pre-college, as then I would not have been on hand to babysit younger siblings as needed, so there was no reason to expect that I should have my own money). My parents also took the line that their kids should be able to go to the best schools they could get into, so there was never an issue of "Well you could go in-state and then you would be able to pay your own way with merit money and part-time work."</p>

<p>
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Its a win, win situation. I get what I want and he gets to go to a college without having to pay for all of it himself and gets to make his own personal decisions.

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<p>This, I think, is the optimal situation. Well, in my ideal world, tuition would be cheap enough that students could pay for it themselves by working part-time/during the summers and living frugally, and so students who had disagreements with their parents could pay their own way without having to drop out temporarily to work full-time or go into huge amounts of debt, and parents wouldn't have to debate whether situation is a good use of their money. But that's not going to happen. :)</p>

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<p>Timely..I think you put it best when you said "after the extremes everything else gets dicey" doesn't it? Very cool about your dd and I hope she stays VERY happy! It is definitely normal behavior as I met my husband right after I graduated high school and didn't end up going to school at all, even tho I was pretty smart, and my parents were super disappointed!</p>

<p>Shrink--it is a fine line isn't it from controlling to supporting...I'm trying to walk it..but dunno how I'm doing? LOL!</p>

<p>Well I did do some checking, as I haven't done too much of it, and found out that we DON"T qualify for a Pell grant, so that cuts out one avenue of extra money. I agree with thinking she won't receive a merit scholarship, as her grades are GOOD, but not outstanding, and no sports are involved in that. I also believe, if I'm not mistaken, that some scholarships and aid are state specific, as I know some schools HAVE to take x amount of residents first, so I'm ASSUMING the same is true for the aid. I know there are scholarships here where I live that are even COUNTY specific..</p>

<p>I also checked into whether dd could get a loan without me, I called the FAFSA people and found out that: a) dd can't even file a FAFSA without my info until she is going for her masters or gets married b) he said it was possible to get loans of some sort (didn't say which) without anyone signing, but I'd have to think the interest would be astronomical?!</p>

<p>I need to study up on this site what my EFC means as far as financial aid goes. </p>

<p>I like the idea of the seminar as well. My mom gave me good advice as well as far as letting my daughter try to get the loans/etc on her own, see how far she gets since she thinks she wants to do all of this on her own, and I have a feeling that will stop her pretty quickly as it seems a pretty tough process without the parents help.</p>

<p>Moe--I like the idea of a financial seminar and we were not able to attend the last one as it fell on my dd's b-day and we already had plans! I need to see when another one is in the works :)</p>

<p>Tawnya</p>

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<p>I don't know who you mean by the "FAFSA people," but FAFSA has NOTHING to do with private bank loans for educational purposes. You do not have to file a FAFSA at all to get a PRIVATE loan. The $ is disbursed directly to the school, not to the student. Yes, the interest rates are high. </p>

<p>And if she is being silly about "internet boy," do note that she can be "independent" if she gets married. Don't put her in a position in which she thinks that getting married will help her financially. </p>

<p>Can she get a loan without your consent? It varies by bank, but YES, some banks WILL give an educational loan without a co-signor once she is 18. After all, these loans can NEVER be discharged in bankruptcy. She doesn't have to pay them back until she graduates. The interest will accrue. </p>

<p>I am NOT suggesting this course of conduct AT ALL. I AM telling you that your D does NOT need your consent to do this once she hits 18. I do not think you should assume that she will be stopped "pretty quickly." </p>

<p>Respectfully, I'd suggest that you fill out the FAFSA forms and any other forms which North Texas has before the dead line and see what kind of fin aid package she gets from North Texas and the other school to which she applied before pressing her to choose the path you prefer.</p>

<p>It may well be that when you have all the information, she will see that the path you want is the wise one...and the "romance" may have cooled.</p>

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<p>My very intelligent friend took on $70,000 in debt in her late 30's. If I had known what she was doing I might have tried to intercede. I got my PhD free at ASU and the school only accepted 8 students per year. Very hard to get accepted--I'm surprised they accepted me--so you don't want to spend so much up front for an undergrad degree. And, in fact, I took out small loans so I wouldn't have to sell my blood or plasma during those years. I had friends who did.</p>

<p>You do not want your D entering the grad school ears with huge debt. Just a bad idea.</p>

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<p>Tawnya--</p>

<p>I feel for you - that's a really tough situation. </p>

<p>I was thinking when I read your OP that it may be an "internet boyfriend" situation because most of the kids I know who just wanted to get away from home chose really well-known out of state schools :-)</p>

<p>Maybe you could try a carefully calm talk with her - ask her what she wants in a college, talk about options, do some college visits -- and -- offer to fly the guy out to visit you in NC, perhaps a couple of times this year. I think that getting an internet relationship into reality - especially in the context of the family - tends to clarify things :-)</p>

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<p>Invite internet boyfriend home for dinner/the weekend. He may turn out to be a keeper...</p>

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<p>Tawnya, I agree with your motivations 100%. Go to school in Texas because of a boy? An* internet *boy?!? Feh. But -- like I said, teenagers tend to be willful, and yes, at age 18 she'll legally be an adult. My suggestion would be to go through all of the financial aid processes and find out what aid - merit, need-based, etc. - your daughter may be eligible for. Yes, a lot of it will probably be loans. After careful consideration she may change her mind - if you put her in a position where her conflict with you over it doesn't get in the way. (You know what I mean - a lot of teenagers will want to do something just because you tell them they can't.) But if she looks it over and wants to go to Texas I predict one of two things: a) She's back by Christmas, $10,000 poorer but wiser, or b) it will all work out somehow.</p>

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<p>Well thank you all for your amazingly wonderful replies. I have to give you an update!</p>

<p>DD and I talked this afternoon, rationally and calmly and I told her that if she wanted to go to Texas that it was fine and I told her, as I had before, what I knew about the financial aid situation, that I filled out the FAFSA, what they would and wouldn't cover, talked about loans, etc. I told her that if she really wanted to go that route, that it was fine and totally up to her. </p>

<p>After we talked a bit she said "I don't think I want to do that and can't do it right now"...(I about wanted to jump up & down at this point), and she said that nothing was permanent and that, if in a year, she hated where she was and still wanted to transfer, that it was still a feasible option. </p>

<p>I also told her that the UNC based schools have a thing called study away, which is where you can transfer for a semester or a quarter to a lot of schools around the country, which is an amazing way to travel and get to check out other schools while getting credit and not paying an arm and a leg. I THINK that one of the schools was UNT, and, if not, there were schools in about every state to check into. I told her I wished I was still in school at that point to travel around and get credit, a cool way to go :) As well as the study abroad programs, which are pretty cool too.</p>

<p>So anyway, I asked her if she wanted to consider one of the other schools in state we had talked about, to at least go visit, but I told her it was totally up to her, and she really wants to and even knows people that are going there who are excited about the possibility she would be going there too.</p>

<p>All I can say is WOWWOWOWOW what a day! I feel like I've been beaten up :) But thank you all so much for lending an ear, some great advice, and even a kick in the behind to make me think of my reasons and change our thought process to her way of thinking :)</p>

<p>Tawnya (ready for a nap)</p>

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<p>well, it is almost like you called her bluff!!! You handled it maturely, and she had an "out" (the $) and thus both still had your pride, but saw the others point of view!!</p>

<p>good work!!!</p>

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<p>Wonderful work, Tawnya! Hugs to you!</p>

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<p>Wow! Wonderful ending! Sounds like great parenting to me!</p>

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<p>
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Sounds like great parenting to me!

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<p>Well.....we helped!! ;-)</p>

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<p>Wow! What a difference a day makes. So much for the Mean Green.</p>

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<p>Whew!!</p>

<p>Interesting outcome.</p>

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<p>post #51 ... great job mom ... I only can hope to conversations like yours with your daughter in tough situations ... I hope it all turns out well!</p>

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<p>Glad to hear it all worked out! Your d sounds like she's got a good head on her shoulders.</p>

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<p>Re: Post #10 "Why did the kids put beans in their ears..."</p>

<p>So glad this seems to be working out well! I'll have to remember this when dealing with my kids...try to agree with what they want and maybe they won't want it so badly anymore! "Sweetie, the tattoo parlor is offering a 2 for 1 bellybutton piercing special; let's go do it together..."</p>