<p>cellardweller, you are suggesting that those organizations that came about during a different period of history (as in when Blacks had to ride in the back of the bus) that they should set the model of current and future groups?</p>
<p>I am not going to search those that do not have a fraternity history though I am sure there are plenty. </p>
<p>So Bay, was anyone injured, taken to the ER with alcohol level that could have killed them because others pushed the student to drink unsafe amounts?</p>
<p>And in regards to Haystack’s link:
</p>
<p>My point is that anything that Greek offers, both good and bad, can be done without it. No one should socially feel pushed that in order to be part of a Greek group they feel pressured to do behavior or they can’t join. </p>
<p>Remove the parts of Greek life that are not like clubs and there you go, they are just organizations for people to be part of or not.</p>
<p>For the record, sororities at MIT are severely restricted by rules to prevent hazing and in general to lessen how much time the sororities can take away from their members/pledges. And as I said, the majority of sorority members didn’t live in the house, which also lessens their influence. (Some didn’t even have houses.)</p>
<p>These rules didn’t exist for MIT frats and I don’t think they are common for most Greek organizations elsewhere.</p>
<p>I happen to believe that sororities at MIT are a positive influence, but I don’t think that means that frats are or necessarily that most sororities are.</p>
<p>^Oldfort, you are right about that. At the college where I advise right now (a small university) and at my original chapter, I take a bit of comfort in the fact that ones reputation really matters, both as a PNM (potential new member) and as an active. These young women are quick to deny membership if a woman develops a reputation durig her 1st semster of college. For all the talk of hookups, and of fratty website talking about “sororstitutes” fraternity boys may spend their lives seeking them, but no sorority chapter wants to be labeled as the “loose house” when it comes time for recruitment. While there is no presure to remain a virgin, there is added pressure to behave as if you are wearing your letters at all time.
It doesn’t always work, and there are still many tales of bad behavior, but I am happy that my “girls” have not made the news under my watch.</p>
<p>I am not sure why this thread is the first thing that I look for when I turn to CC since my son has decided not to join a fraternity. I do enjoy reading the different points of view which become very predictable after a few rounds.</p>
<p>Last evening, I attended a neighborhood progressive dinner. One of our good friends sat at the table with us and took a big bite of meat covered with horseradish. As his eyes watered, he said that when he was a little kid, his older brother challenged him to eat a full spoonful of horseradish and if he ate it, he could be a member of the older brother’s club. Of course, wanting to join, he swallowed the horseradish. When he recovered enough to speak, he asked if he was now a member of the club. Brother’s answer was “Dues is $1.25.”</p>
<p>cartera45, me three. Wish there was a “like” button.</p>
<p>oldfort: It is a choice but cc is full of posting of students who felt that Greek life was so dominant at their school that if they didn’t join they felt they wouldn’t have a social life particularly at schools that are over 40% greek.</p>
<p>D1 told me that her sorority made a point of keeping the sisters safe. When they had mixers with a fraternity, they asked for sober drivers to drive them home. They stopped having mixers with few fraternities because they saw the drivers drink. They also had sobers at every mixer. They couldn’t drink at the party, if they saw a sister drinking too much, they would go up with a glass of water, and it would be a sign for that sister to stop drinking. It’s not a fun duty, and they all took turns. D1’s sorority didn’t want to have a bad reputation on campus, and they did ask their members to behave. Before D1 joined her sorority, I used to nag at her about going out in a group and make sure they all got home safely. I was glad to hear that D1’s sorority was taking care of that.</p>
<p>I am simply suggesting that fraternal organizations have been part of every civilzation, both ancient and modern. Nobody forces anybody to join. </p>
<p>Lakemom, I am trying to understand the point you are trying to make. You seem to suggest that people should be able to join any organization without restriction or mutual agreement. As far as I know, this country recognizes freedom of association in the Bill of Rights. The association is allowed to set the rules for membership: male or female, religion, race, ethnicity, income, trade … If you can’t or don’t want to abide by them, don’t join.</p>
<p>Of course CC is full of people posting about the benefits of Greek life. It is because Greek life is attacked regularly, largely by people who have no experience with it. It is logical that people who have had experience will come up with personal experiences and reasons that it was good for them and others they know.</p>
<p>These rules certainly exits now and hazing is now illegal under Massachusetts law and the MIT interfraternity council (IFC) rules.</p>
<p>While my D was in an MIT sorority in 2010, an MIT fraternity got a 10 year suspension (later reduced to 4 years) for relatively mild hazing involving pouring alcohol over pledges’ heads. It took less than a an hour for the IFC to suspend the fraternity. They were not kidding about no hazing!</p>
<p>Bay: “What do you mean by “ritualized behaviors?” If you mean activities that they engage in year after year as traditions, then no. If you mean putting on robes and making speeches by candlelight - eh - I am not religious and those church-type rituals always creeped me out a bit, but I don’t see a “problem” with them. Am I answering your question?”</p>
<p>No. I never mentioned those things. I m talking about rituals with negative outcomes, primarily hazing, also situations brought up with the coolers/hotels, etc.</p>
<p>What I am saying is back to my original statement. Organizations that thrive on divisionism, that perpetuates and an “us” “them” attitude are not the type of organizations we want to perpetuate. </p>
<p>Organizations that insist/require that people perform activities that they feel pressured to do in order to join are not in the best interest of the student.</p>
<p>Actually I don’t really care if there is divisionism, it is of your opinion that “not the type of organization we want to perpetuate,” not necessary my opinion. I am not opposed to all men’s club because if it makes some men happy to get together to exercise, play golf or have dinners (dinner club), I say “go knock yourself out.” If some people want to join country club, go ahead, but it is not my cup of tea.</p>
<p>Just because it is not something I want to do doesn’t necessary mean I want to prevent other people from doing it. It is why I don’t understand why people keep on coming to CC to spread this propaganda abut Greek life. You don’t like it then forbid your kid from join it, cut off funding if you need to.</p>
<p>That’s a lot of rhetoric. What you are saying can also be said about pretty much all fraternal and even religious organizations. Should they all be banned? Who is the we? The ones that can’t be members? </p>
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<p>Pretty much all organizations have various rituals or activities that pledging members are pressured as rule of membership to perform. Are all such activities to be banned even if they are not hazing per se? Young men should not have to go on two-year missions as condition of membership in the Mormon church? Who can tell if the activity is not in the interest of the prospective student or member? Only an outsider to the organization?</p>
<p>Lakemom, your position is clealry inconsistent. You single out college fraternities for restrictive admissions policies and exclusionary rules common to thousands of other organizations. If you suggest that fraternities should be outright banned because some people (even a majority) don’t feel that they are necessary, you are probably in the wrong country.</p>
<p>The reactionaries rule on this thread. Did Lakemom call for the ban on Greek organizations? No, she did not. </p>
<p>What blows my mind is the defensiveness. People avoid talking about he issues head on, critically, and instead move on to slippery slope rhetoric. Please. The idea that Greek life can perpetuate an us/them mentality on college campuses is a valid point. Can’t it be discussed rather than scorned? </p>
<p>Ok, so, oldfort doesnt care if it creates a division, and likens Greek life to men’s clubs. I think the comparison doesnt hold. We are talking about creating division in a very finite campus community, not in the world at large. So the divisions have a much stronger impact. Yes, there are lots of clubs and cliques but when 40 percent of the students are involved, it’s worth studying the impact it has on the entire community. What about, say, the gay community. Are they welcomed in all of these fraternities? Who ends up getting marginalized? Maybe some of you think that’s perfectly ok.</p>
<p>“If you suggest that fraternities should be outright banned because some people (even a majority) don’t feel that they are necessary, you are probably in the wrong country.”</p>
<p>Really? You put words into her mouth and then tangle it up and say she is being un-American?</p>
<p>The definition of perpetuate is to continue or to carry on and its oposite is to terminate or discontinue. Maybe lakemom has a different definition for “not perpetuating”.</p>
<p>The children in my daughter’s high school come from homes that speak 49 different languages. Their ethnicity is almost evenly divided between Caucasian, Hispanic, Black, and Asian. Many kids come from religious families, so there are Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and they all attend events for other kids like Quinceneras. (speling?) that are not normally part of their traditions. I ask my daughter how the lunch tables work, and she says there’s one or two all white or all black tables, but pretty much the kids mix themselves up. The kids are very open to gender issues, and I don’t think many kids feel marginalized. To me, this presents an ideal situation. Kids get to know others from different backgrounds, learn acceptance, learn about other cultures. (I think this is especially important given the anti Muslim sentiment rampant in this country)</p>
<p>When you have Greek life predominating, and then separate dwellings for foreign students, etc, does this or does this not detract from students ability to learn fom each other’s different backgrounds? Isn’t it easier to stay isolated?</p>
<p>Personally (maybe you don’t think this) I think college is a good time for kids to branch out, not close themselves in. No, I shouldn’t impose my standards on you. Fine. But do you at least acknowledge there is some merit in this idea?</p>