<p>Cellar: “Not want to perpetuate” is much much much less harsh than calling for a total ban. The thing to do is stick with the original quote, not exaggerate it.</p>
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<p>I wasn’t talking about anti-hazing rules. Those have always been in place, though they weren’t effective, partly because they depend on a pledge turning their fraternity in. As for the case you mentioned, it was a big secret as to what the hazing actually was. It wasn’t mentioned in the newspaper. Presumably, the Tech reporters attended the hearing which overturned the 10 year suspension, and there was no talk about what the hazing actually was.</p>
<p>Anyway, I was talking about restrictions on how much time sororities could demand of people, what types of things they were allowed to do, that sort of thing. I don’t remember the details, but I know that there were a bunch of rules on what they could and could not do. Dominating a pledge’s time is the insidious first step toward real hazing.</p>
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<p>Regarding the coolers/hotels: I think the coolers are dumb, but no, I don’t have a problem with adults decorating coolers and staying in hotels, if that is what they want to do. It is not a requirement of membership in Greek life, and no one is coerced or forced to go if they don’t want to. It is not a “ritual” of membership. Underage drinking is a problem, but that is not specific to Greek life, and it won’t go away by banning painted coolers. Why do you have a problem with coolers/hotels?</p>
<p>Unlawful hazing is banned everywhere, so I do not consider it a “ritual.” I do not condone any unlawful activity by anyone. I am very much in favor of lowering the drinking age to 18, but I still caution my kids against it because I don’t want them to end up with a criminal record.</p>
<p>Hello? We are talking about college groups that we are payng money for our children to attend that they are sort of a captive audience of. </p>
<p>I never said to ban any organization. </p>
<p>If you want to join these organizations on your own after college without feeling they are exclusionary, like a men’s golf club, go ahead. </p>
<p>But be sure to let us know if you were pressured to perform any activities that you would not otherwise want to do? Like eating or drinking things that make you want to puke. </p>
<p>And let us know if you choose to leave the group how well you are treated by the other members.</p>
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<p>Maybe I’m dim (didn’t have my coffee this morning), but I’m not getting your meaning here. What do you mean by “they are sort of a captive audience of?”</p>
<p>I think people who weren’t Greek have a very overinflated view of the “rituals” and “pressure.” Really, if you don’t want to go to a certain formal or whatever, you don’t do it. I didn’t participate in some of my sorority’s activities because I had a serious boyfriend / later fiance and I didn’t really have a need to go to mixers / exchanges with fraternity boys. So I didn’t. Big whoops. And some of you are completely off base with thinking that joining a Greek house = you can only be friends with people in that house. You can be friends with whoever you want to be, you can engage in whatever other clubs / activities / teams you want to.</p>
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<p>One can also create drama where there doesn’t need to be. For example, there’s a difference between saying to a pledge class of boys, “You guys need to finish (as a group) X number of White House Castle sliders” and “You guys need to eat worms / vomit.” The first can fall under light-hearted fun; the second is unacceptable.</p>
<p>Captive audience as in enrolled in a single college and live and go to classes with a defined separate population. </p>
<p>Do the students at UCLA go join clubs at USC? If you work for IBM do you go to the company parties at Xerox? You by nature of the number of hours you spend in your own world, in this case the student’s college, you predominately stay within that circle because it is the environment that surrounds you.</p>
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<p>“Studying the impact” sounds like code for imposing restrictions on fraternities. Why else would you study the impact? </p>
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<p>That’s a red herring. What about women? Should they be admitted in fraternities and not just sororities? What about openly jewish fraternities and sororities? Should Christians be able to demand admission? By definition, fraternities, just as any other private organizations, can decide on their membership as it wants. We may not like it, but that is their right. </p>
<p>You are also doubly wrong as there are fraternities such as Sigma Phi Beta that are organized for and by gay, straight, bisexual, and transgender men in college. Very few fraternities have specific restrictions against gay members although the actual numbers may vary by chapter. Only in black fraternities is it rare to find openly gay members.</p>
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<p>Since when could foreign students not join fraternities? My D’s sorority at MIT was like the United Nations. Every nationality, religion and race you could think of. There were both students from very wealthy backgrounds and many on financial aid. Jocks and nerds. Lesbian and straight. There is no inherent incompatibility between Greek life and diversity, expect as perceived from those that are not involved in it.</p>
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<p>I serve as an advisor to my alma mater’s sorority and have a “little sister” that I advise. The sorority is PLENTY diverse (=mirroring the diversity of the university). Frankly there is a heck of a lot LESS diversity (naturally) in, say, the Black House, or the Korean Students Group, or whatever. But I don’t have a problem with students who have those commonalities banding together to form whatever organization they see fit.</p>
<p>Cellardweller: your power to mix up what I am saying amazes me.
For example "“Studying the impact” sounds like code for imposing restrictions on fraternities. Why else would you study the impact? "</p>
<p>You are putting words in my mouth and then running with ideas I never expressed or imagined.</p>
<p>“If you want to join these organizations on your own after college without feeling they are exclusionary, like a men’s golf club, go ahead.”
So you are just against these groups for adults while IN college? That is easily solved- go to one of the many fine schools in US that do not have Greek Life. If it is about fit, then that is a decision made early in the admission process if there is a concern.</p>
<p>MizzBee, after college you are out in the real world. You can move to any state or country you want your can take any job you want. Adults? Isn’t 21 really considered adulthood?</p>
<p>Pizza. If that’s the case, that’s great. That’s not the experience of two recent college graduates I’ve spoken with, who feel like frats did divide their communities. I guess the moral is, its incorrect to generalize, from either side. Each campus is different.</p>
<p>MizzBee, I agree with you up to a point. I would be happy to send my kids to colleges without Greek life (if that’s what they want). Sadly, we can’t afford Vassar, etc. My kids may well be going to their state university. There will be Greek life there.</p>
<p>Lakemom, I consider 18 an adult-when my son can go to war, get a credit card, be charged with murder, get married and vote for President. </p>
<p>Until the laws change to extend adulthood then I follow that definition.</p>
<p>That’s a convenient definition, I’ve used it myself. </p>
<p>But he can’t buy alcohol so I guess the US government doesn’t see it that way. Realistically, there are things I would not trust an 18 year old’s judgement on that I would at 21.</p>
<p>Re: “impact” of Greek campuses on those not participating:</p>
<p>I did not go Greek at my big state U, which allegedly has a very visible Greek presence. Its impact on me was nil. NIL. Greek life didn’t prevent me from joining any one of hundreds of clubs and various activities, it did not prevent me from developing satisfying relationships (some with people who were in Greek organizations), enjoying parties and outings with friends, going to football games, working on campus, getting dates, etc. I can see where people might have reservations about aspects of the Greek system which would cause them to say “no thanks” on the whole thing, or even refuse to pay for them for their kids. Beyond that, I don’t get the vitriol. NO ONE is forced to join these organizations, their presence doesn’t keep non members from making their own plans and maximizing their own potential, and even those who join them are perfectly free to de-pledge or de-activate from them later. I never felt “left out” because I wasn’t Greek, I was aware that I had made the choice not to participate. I also never felt an “us” vs. “them” mentality.</p>
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<p>Generally, the law treats you as adult from the age of 18. You can go to war, buy a house, get capital punishment. You just can’t drink.</p>
<p>Again, you are suggesting that fraternities should not be allowed “to perpetuate” in a college environment because of perceived exclusionary practices. </p>
<p>Many campuses are like cities with thousands of students and hundreds of organizations. Nobody could possibly join all organizations and very seldom does one feel excluded from student life because one could not join this or that organization. Take MIT as example: mid-size university with 4,000 undergrads, about 40% Greek membership. Nobody has ever suggested that Greek life had too much influence on campus or that those outside of frats and sororities felt excluded or could not have a social life. As far as exclusionary practices, essentially everybody that pledged got accepted somewhere.</p>
<p>Redpoint, even in my state there are public schools with marginal greek life - IUPUI (4%), Ball State (not a strong Greek culture). We also have tons of schools that offer great merit and need-based aid that do not have Greek life. Look at the list of schools that meet 100% need and you will see many options with little or no Greek life. </p>
<p>Even if there are schools with Greek life, the percentages are rarely over 20%. Now if the complaint is that all the cool parties happen only in the fraternity houses, then I say that is the fault of the students. That shows a lack of creativity, IMHO.</p>