<p>I suppose the thing to do is research the college beforehand as best one can. (if one truly has a choice of where to go given $). Maybe at MIT, 40 percent Greeks had no impact. My niece said that wasn’t her experience at Duke, where she felt the influence was often negative. It’s all anecdotal and personal.</p>
<p>I keep making the same point over and over. I don’t think Greek organizations should be banned or “prevented from perpetuating” </p>
<p>I said remove the parts that make them unlike clubs so that potential members can join without being pressured to perform activities that have nothing to do with the club’s purpose.</p>
<p>If you wanted to go get a job, you are interviewed for the job and your interests and qualifications are evaluated. Do you have to do something embarrassing, uncomfortable and potentially unsafe to get that position?</p>
<p>lakemom, you are once again assuming that the way to join a fraternity involves activities that are “embarrassing, uncomfortable and potentially unsafe”. While that may occur in individual chapters, it is not the intent or mission of fraternities and sororities as a whole and to ignore those that have explained the difference between ritual and hazing (myself, bay, pizzagirl) is to perpetuate a falsehood. </p>
<p>For every story of hazing there is another anecdote of a great experience. The national orgs are focusing on making positive changes. Some groups have eliminated pledgeships. Almost all groups have limited the amount of time required for pledgeship and enforcement of group rules. About 10 groups have instituted dry houses (and have seen enrollment increase rather than decrease overall). It is a process. I can also tell you that part of the reason we see these chapters getting shut down or put on probation more often is that more and more national orgs and alumni are not willing to pay for bad behavior.</p>
<p>You are right, I am reporting based on what college students of my friends who are male have told me what they were told that they would be doing to be admitted to a fraternity they were inquiring about. </p>
<p>One of them happened to be in Indiana as matter a fact at Univ of Indiana. This student did not pursue his interest in the fraternity he explored.</p>
<p>I was never pressured to drink, eat or do anything in my sorority. I did dress up in costumes and sing silly songs during rush but we knew we were not oblivious to the ridiculousness and we embraced it. I never found laughing until I cried to be a negative thing. </p>
<p>I did stand on top of a table at a fraternity house and sing an ode to the fraternity to the tune of “I’m a Little Teacup” however. I was not embarrassed because I did an awesome job. I do believe that is likely something that would not have happened sans sorority, but I cannot say that with 100% certainty.</p>
<p>My sense, since I also have friends with girls in sororities also in Indiana as it happens, is that fraternities tend to push things a bit further.</p>
<p>If all Greek life were as you say it is MizzBee, few will have a problem with it. </p>
<p>I’m going to make a guess and say some percentage, however small, of fraternities and to a lesser extent sororities have questionable practices, which is why we are debating this. It is that segment which will continue to demand public scrutiny. People in these groups as well as people out of them who may be affected by them (parents and students in school but out of the Greek system) must be allowed to have respectful discourse.</p>
<p>I’ve learned a lot from getting into this discussion. in some ways I think I view the system better.</p>
<p>It frustrates me how incredibly reactionary some responses have been. I only hope people can grow from such discussion, rather than just put down others and twist their ideas, if they view it differently.</p>
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<p>My experience is exactly like cartera’s, except in my case it was being dressed up in a super-preppy fashion and singing a song derived from the Preppy Handbook, which was big in the day (early-mid 80’s). It was fun and a girlfriend of mine and I still call one another Bitsy and Bootsy as an in-joke related to that time. Part of what I want my kids doing in school is doing fun, silly things that they’ll not be able to do as much as they get older and have real-world pressures.</p>
<p>I hope that I do not come off as too reactionary. I do take it personally, however, as I still feel the same way that I did as an 18 year old in that I still feel that I wear my letters every day.
Lakemom, I do have horror stories from IU, which is why my DS would not go there. I am the first to say it is not perfect, but I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. As long as those committed to making it better, those within and outside the organizations will work to improve it.</p>
<p>MizzBee, I would trust my 18 y.o. son with my life. He is every bit an adult with the best of them so we are on the same page :). I just react when I feel that people’s true “free will” is being put to test. I want our students to feel that they really do have a choice to join or not.</p>
<p>An example of specific case research and the “case by case” approach . . .</p>
<p>I just looked up our state land grant University out of curiosity. This is a school that is easier to get into than the “flagship” U but offers better merit aid. It is about half the size of “flagship U” and out in the middle of nowhere. Because of the cost (after merit) and size difference and the presence of an honors college it has become more popular recently. There is an ongoing debate locally amongst parents and students about the party image of the school. I have been told by male and female alums of all ages and current students that the image holds fast. One of the college guide books has a little blurb at the end of each review that says "If you come bring your . . . " For Davidson it was “bring your sundress” and for Macalester it was “Bring a cause . . .” For this school everyone seems to be in agreement that the answer would be “Bring your beer shoes.” In this case, beer shoes have been described as shoes that you won’t worry about having ruined by all the beer and vomit on the floor at the fraternity houses.</p>
<p><a href=“https://gogreek.wsu.edu/default.asp?PageID=3945[/url]”>https://gogreek.wsu.edu/default.asp?PageID=3945</a></p>
<p>I checked out their Greek links and found some great and very comprehensive information. They do have a prominent link for confidential reporting of hazing. They also have GPA information broken down my house, year and class. Interestingly, sororities have GPAs just a tick higher than women on campus as a whole and fraternities have an average GPA a tick lower than the average male GPA. All women were higher than all men on average. There is quite a bit of variability by house and these types of numbers could be really helpful to students and parents who may want to limit their bid attempts to houses that are higher on the list.</p>
<p>My grandmother’s and great-aunt’s house on this campus which had an illustrious history and was an academic house at one time fell below the average women’s GPA last year and lost recognition several months ago due to hazing and underage drinking, so things do change. </p>
<p>[NWCN.com</a> Washington - Oregon - Idaho](<a href=“http://www.nwcn.com/home/?fId=138684579&fPath=/news/local&fDomain=10222]NWCN.com”>http://www.nwcn.com/home/?fId=138684579&fPath=/news/local&fDomain=10222)</p>
<p>Many students have choices about attending a no Greek school or participating or not when there is a Greek presence. However, I do not think that the comparison between sororities at MIT and similarly selective academic institutions and fraternities at isolated land-grant colleges is a fair one.</p>
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<p>Well, sure. But I’m nonplussed as to why the debate is over “the Greek system” as opposed to “those yahoos at Kappa Tau Stupid at XYZ University who did something stupid.” You don’t hold all college students responsible for the actions of some, so I don’t understand why the “good” Greeks should be tarred with the brush of the “bad” ones.</p>
<p>I would add that for a guy at a dominant Greek school, particularly one that is geographically isolated it can be a difficult social choice to make. This is not meant to be a blanket statement about all fraternities, but it is not uncommon for all women to be welcome at fraternity functions, but male participation to be limited to those in the house or invited male guests.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact saintfan, one of the schools my son was interested in also had that attitude. They didn’t want too many guys at the gatherings to out number the girls.</p>
<p>As a requirement of my pledging period years ago, we were required to memorize and recite the Greek alphabet. Years later when I travelled to Greece, I could actually read and pronounce building signs because I knew the letters (but I didn’t know what the words meant lol). I don’t think houses can require their pledges to learn the Greek alphabet anymore, because it would constitute hazing. It wasn’t all negative.</p>
<p>Actually Bay, I think they still do. I know we still require it as part of new member education. It is very useful information. they just probably can’t line you up and try to distract you while you recite it.</p>
<p>Pizza girl: “Well, sure. But I’m nonplussed as to why the debate is over “the Greek system” as opposed to “those yahoos at Kappa Tau Stupid at XYZ University who did something stupid.” You don’t hold all college students responsible for the actions of some, so I don’t understand why the “good” Greeks should be tarred with the brush of the “bad” ones.”</p>
<p>True. It’s not just this thread, it’s the general perception. This isnt going to change anytime soon. </p>
<p>But, it’s not just XYZ university. Terrible incidents have occurred at Yale, Cornell, and Dartmouth recently.</p>
<p>Let’s be honest,Dartmouth has had problems for years. The Cornell case is both tragic and bizarre (pledges causing the death of an active) and I am assuming you are talking about Yales DKE scandal since I see no deaths since 2003 involving a scavenger hunt. </p>
<p>I would never defend schools that don’t make any changes nor defend organziations that don’t crack down when horrible things happen.</p>
<p>Well, the, Yale, Cornell and Dartmouth are XYZ university. I used XYZ to stand for any university, not just non-elite ones.</p>
<p>The Yale “scandal” involved words only.</p>
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<p>The rumor back then was that pledges had to hold a lighted match while reciting the Greek alphabet, which had to be completed before they were allowed to blow out the match. (Meaning, you had to be able to know it well and say it fast in order to avoid getting burned - by yourself.)</p>
<p>Of course, that rumor never turned out to be reality, but it made for great hazing lore.</p>