<p>It’s a thread about whether we support our children being in fraternities & sororities.</p>
<p>So my question is - are we okay with our sons behaving like this to women? Whether we think it is humorous? </p>
<p>Not whether our sons have a first amendment right to behave in such a way.</p>
<p>
The answer to this might not be the same as what we think the university should do about it.</p>
<p>I don’t understand. Those that support Greek life say, if you don’t like it, don’t join. But what if the kid wants to join. He gets accepted, then his pledge class is told to chant something that he understands is not in good taste. (The Yale situation) Wouldn’t a group that promotes leadership want him to speak out against it? I’m pretty sure he feels like he "has " to do it or he wont fit it. How you avoid this group think? He wants to be in. He has put a lot of effort into getting accepted. He will probably do something against his better judgement in order to be accepted. The point of pledging is that you have to do what they say, right? To me that does not promote leadership. And let’s face it, it’s not just the yahoos at xyz university. Kids everywhere have bad judgement at one time or another! I think what we “outsiders” don’t understand is the conformity aspect.</p>
<p>In her pro-fraternity piece (the war on fraternity article linked above) Allen writes: “(fraternities) were — and still are — refuges from the oppressive political correctness that has come to dominate institutions of higher learning. Fraternities are places where male students don’t have to apologize for being men, with their “throaty voices” and testosterone, and can laugh freely at the latest pronunciamentos from the Women’s Center.”</p>
<p>She’s saying it’s fine for fraternities to degrade woman, that’s just boys being boys. So if that is the atmosphere of many fraternities, are you all okay with that? Is that what you want your sons to feel comfortable with and perpetuate?</p>
<p>It would have been interesting if those DKE pledges at Yale had said, “We know you don’t really want us to do this, because we’d be violating the essence of what it means to be a DKE”
By the way, Yale did punish the fraternity.</p>
<p>I don’t approve of a lot of things that are said and done today, but I don’t expect people to conform to my views or approval rating. People have a right to act as inconsiderate jerks and insert themselves into silly situations if they want to. If a judge or jury finds that they violated a law by doing so, then okay. I don’t see their behavior as a problem for me to solve or a lesson to be taught to my children every time it happens. Once my children turned 18, I felt very confident that they were capable of drawing their own conclusions about other peoples’ behavior. I don’t need to tell them how to think anymore.</p>
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</p>
<p>Is the Deke scandal an example of an event that went wrong? Or do you agree with the views expressed in the LA Times article? Is it instead an example of fun pranks and not taking life so seriously?</p>
<p>I’ve just caught up with this thread by scanning the last 7-8 pages even though it takes CollConfidential forever to refresh (what is the deal with that?) but anyway as I read/scan what is being discussed/debated it occurs to me why so many people stop participating on CollConfidential threads:</p>
<ol>
<li>The debate becomes personal.</li>
<li>Certain posters repeat the same points over and over on multiple threads and it doesn’t even matter what the thread topic is you will hear the same stories. </li>
<li>No matter what you write 4-5 people will twist your words and then have the nerve to attack you for what you didn’t even write. </li>
</ol>
<p>Yet, despite all of that Redpoint, in her own unique way, has managed to keep this thread alive and productive. My hat is off to you. </p>
<p>Redpoint you are pushing at what I tried to say a few pages ago … the world already had enough Charlie Sheens. Some people pretend frats don’t promote certain behaviors, okay, whatever, but most people have eyes and a brain and can see right through the mumbo jumbo and talking points and yes isn’t funny that the people in the gang, I am sorry, the frats attack anyone and anything that attacks the family. Gangs and frats have a lot more in common (both provide a family of sorts) than some are willing to admit. </p>
<p>So, as redpoint politely wondered why can’t we discuss some of theses things? </p>
<p>As the parent fo two boys NO I do not want my sons to treat women like so many pieces of meat. I would STRONGLY prefer my boys stand up to all the peer pressure they are already getting at a public high school (the older) one to get rid of the V card and so forth. It becomes a race. I’d rather have my kids hang out with the girls they met as friends and focus on having a good time because later in life that will serve them well. You start out thinking of women as just useful for sex so that you can brag to your friends about it those habits will be hard to break later in life. </p>
<p>I am unfamiliar with the incidents you are discussing now. I am trying to piece it together because I don’t have time to google it today but apparently some frats guys at an IVY type university had to say dirty things to women because … I don’t know they were told to or had to or whatever. Harmless fun? free speech? It doesn’t matter to me I would be seriously ****ed if either of my sons did stuff like and I think that is part of what redpoint, asa women, is trying to say. </p>
<p>Why do we (as a society) look the other way? </p>
<p>It is stupid.</p>
<p>Young men should be held to higher standards by their parents. That is what parents are supposed to do. I am not perfect either but I want, as I said before, my kids to be better than I was. Redpoint you stand out on this thread as a really cool person. I would venture to say your kids are just as cool.</p>
<p>By the way, </p>
<p>I get the feeling at smaler schools frats are less important because everyone, by necessity, already hangs out with everyone else. </p>
<p>At larger schools frats can provide a way to connect to others which can be an issue at a 40,000+ school. </p>
<p>Lastly, you would think this would be obvious, but frats and sororities are clearly different so please, if you are going to blindly defend frats, don’t start in with how it was at your sorority because 90% of what I dislike about frats I don’t even in any way associate with S-girls. The idea that S-girls don’t do certain things is obvious enough it doesn’t need to be said.</p>
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</p>
<p>I think a discussion of this is beyond the scope of this thread. However, the DKE’s activity most certainly did turn out to go wrong for them, as the University ostensibly took action over it. Whether that action was justified is a different question. Context is very important when evaluating behavior (fraternity or otherwise), and people who have more intimate knowledge of Yale and its tolerances and culture may have differing opinions about how the incident ought to have been treated.</p>
<p>I am very familiar with both fraternity life and Yale. I am willing to go way out on a limb and condemn the Deke’s behavior, at least this instance.</p>
<p>You?</p>
<p>edit: I am NOT getting into the debate about appropriate punishments, only whether we parents approve or disapprove or are neutral about this particular incident.</p>
<p>alh,
What is your familiarity with fraternity life and Yale?</p>
<p>RE: post #349
I was wondering about that myself. While the OP was a asking about state school frats and several posters have confirmed some situations to be wary of at state school frats and provided resources to do further investigation, much of the ensuing commentary uses Ivy and near Ivy sororities as a jumping off point. Those positive experiences related are certainly valid and affirming, but not necessarily indicative of the type of situations that one might encounter at a fraternity at, say, a mid-selectivity public land grant university.</p>
<h1>352</h1>
<p>How about a trade? You answer one of my questions and I’ll answer one of yours?</p>
<p>[To</a> End Fraternity Hazing, End Boozing First - Commentary - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“To End Fraternity Hazing, End Boozing First”>To End Fraternity Hazing, End Boozing First)</p>
<p>Ok, I think it is your turn. But I will proceed. </p>
<p>I don’t feel capable of “condemning” DKE’s behavior in this instance. I am not a Yale alum, but I have a sense about its culture of encouraging (tolerating?) all points of view, radical or not, including as regards to sexuality and sex acts.</p>
<p>Also, as distasteful as it may seem to us older-generationals (or not), today anal sex is treated as just one of many socially acceptable alternatives for both straight and gay couples. A Yale friend of my D’s actually told me (much to my old-school embarrassment at the time), that she teaches local underprivileged teenagers about safe sex, including anal sex, through a community outreach program sponsored by Yale.</p>
<p>Now what is your familiarity with fraternity life and Yale?</p>
<p>The reason the frat defenders go on the attack the second anyone questions frat behavior is because they don’t want anyone to spoil the fun. Don’t take away the lunch bowl! And, of course, they will miss out of all that leadership and community service. Of course. </p>
<p>Why is it that every thing frat related can be learned from the movie Animal House? That movie nailed it. Another movie that featured frat life was Old School with Will Ferrell. Old School was good but nothing will ever top Animal House for exposing frats for what they are and there is no way anyone wants to the party to end so stop asking question. Who cares if there is some bad behavior at a few frats? Aren’t we all going to die anyway? </p>
<p>So keep sticking to the talking points frat defnders even if the talking points are debunked just keep talking and talk real fast because you might confuse some people that way.</p>
<p>Thanks so much, ACCecil. It’s great to have your support, and I appreciate the way you cut through to the heart of the matter.</p>
<p>Bay: “I don’t feel capable of “condemning” DKE’s behavior in this instance. I am not a Yale alum, but I have a sense about its culture of encouraging (tolerating?) all points of view, radical or not, including as regards to sexuality and sex acts.”</p>
<p>Mmm. Bay, they weren’t simply chanting about anal sex. they were advocating date rape. It wasn’t even subtle. “no means yes, yes means anal.” come on.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There’s a gulf of difference between approving of the practice of sexual acts in a respectful consensual context and belligerently yelling/threatening to do it to random women at a center with whom you have a disagreement. </p>
<p>As someone who is only some years removed from the oldest in the current millennial generation…I find it highly disturbing that a much older parent supported what the DEKE did as “Free Speech” and theorizes whether such behavior is more accepted in the younger generation. </p>
<p>Actually, younger people with few exceptions are much less tolerant of such behavior than older generations…especially older generation males. I’m surprised this is even a matter for debate as in most families I’ve been around…especially the upper/upper-middle class families who sent many kids to schools like Yale…such behavior is a sign of two things:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Abysmal parenting and the imparting of basic values of etiquette and how to conduct oneself in the company of others (a.k.a. Don’t act like a bellicose jerk). </p></li>
<li><p>Atrocious lack of respect for other people…especially women. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Also, keep in mind that Yale is a private educational institution which means:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It has the duty to teach lessons it feels students should learn as a part of its mission…especially when such lessons are relevant to get along in the modern workplace and society at large. </p></li>
<li><p>Yale is ostensibly a private university, not the US government. Thus, it is not necessarily obligated to be 100% constitutional as the government or a publicly run university/college.</p></li>
</ol>