<p>I’m going to be completely honest when I say this: I don’t know anyone’s son or daughter on CC. The idea that because I think frats are full of drunken Charlie Sheen wannabee’s and cheat at all costs to get through college dimwits is NOT my opinion of anyone’s son and daughter in particular even if they are in a frat or sorority. </p>
<p>You once again might have thought that would be so obvious it need not be said but apparently it needs to be said. This thread would have been better if a few didn’t feel like their own son or daughter was attacked. I’ll file that under give me a break. </p>
<p>Perhaps I should have said the frat people I know of or heard about AT MY SCHOOL. Would that have helped with all the righteous indignation? I wasn’t very balanced in my views, why mince words, but I certainly do NOT think ALL frats guys are Charlie Sheens. Obviously. Certainly, some frat chapters, especially at elite schools, are full of honest, hard working leaders. I realize that. But you can’t use those great folks to deny all the other folks in frats because that is just being blind and stupid. </p>
<p>Redpoint, I am sorry you are getting painted with the colors off my brush. That is just plain unfair. If people want to hurl stones at me for being a caveman have at it. I could care less (obviously) what other people think about me especially people I will probably never meet. </p>
<p>For what it is worth, most of you have amazing kids, I am guessing, and should be proud of them and if you feel they were being slandered or attacked I understand why you feel the need to to defend them. Great. After you are done, maybe you can then at least consider the rest of the people in frats and take a harder view at what some people dislike about frats and frat behavior. </p>
<p>At the end of the day it all comes down to what is best for YOUR son or daughter and only a parent who really knows that person can decide that. For the OP and other who are looking at this thread and trying to decide what is best for their child a few basic ideas emerged virtually unchallenged which include: </p>
<ol>
<li><p>The frat experience at a large, southern football factory isn’t the same as it is liekly to be at an elite school. The emphasis on drinking and having a good time isn’t the same in the overall student populations at publics vs elites either so it shouldn’t be much of a shock that frat life is quite different as well. </p></li>
<li><p>Some folks value frats for providing a sense of community or for the social aspects and others place less value on that for a variety of reasons. </p></li>
<li><p>Some folks think frats are expensive and tantamount to renting friends.</p></li>
<li><p>Some folks worry that frats will haze or otherwise place their S or D in a dangerous situation. People have died. Maybe that is worth discussing.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Well put, Cobrat. It probably isn’t good if I agree with something so I am sorry in advance if you have to deal with me agreeing with how well you articulated your thoughts in #360 but I have to do it. </p>
<p>Consolidation, please tell me another story about your son. Please. Make it a long one I do so enjoy them. So, because your son is such a sharp guy that means that no one in frats is an idiot, right? Because there is no hazing, as far as you know, that of course means that hazing and pranks that other people hear about is just boys being boys or people being whiny babies right?</p>
<p>Your “analogy” directed at redpoint’s kids was wrong on so many levels not the least of which is redpoint didn’t even say the things I said but also because if someone does think high school kids are lazy, let’s say, compared to the high school kids of China or some other country, that OBVIOUSLY doesn’t mean the comment relates to ALL high school kids. It is a generalization. It doesn’t mean all. </p>
<p>Irony, thy name is ACCecil. You say (correctly) that redpoint shouldn’t be painted with the colors off your brush … but then you say it doesn’t matter that there are “good” fraternity members - there are still “bad” fraternity members and that’s what counts. But why should “good” fraternity members be tarred with anyone else’s brush? Why are “good” fraternity members supposed to be responsible for, or take ownership of, or feel guilty about “bad” fraternity members? </p>
<p>Yes, there are stupid people in some fraternities, who do at best stupid and at worst dangerous things. But that doesn’t reflect on anyone other than themselves.</p>
<p>Because it is a message board and there is a thread about the Greek Decision. That’s why. It is blatently obviously that some frat guys are good and others are not. I am just chiming in with my perspective and views so spare me the indignation and lectures. </p>
<p>If you have different views post them. </p>
<p>I’ll be tolerant of yours regardless of whether you are tolerant of mine or not.</p>
<p>Fraternity membership will mirror the general population at the college. Fraternities at large lower-tier state schools probably appear to behave worse, because ALL of the student body is less inclined to be studious and responsible.</p>
<p>I disagree. When stupid people in fraternities do stupid things it does reflect badly on fraternities… and it should imho. Maybe not if an individual fraternity member does something unseemly that has absolutely nothing to do with the fraternity, like if he is arrested for DWI while he is home on spring break. (Though it does speak to the character of the individuals the fraternity chooses to be brothers) But if he is arrested for DWI with a car full of brothers visiting an off campus bar? And I think any activity that happens as part of a group activity, or in the house, definitely reflects on the entire group. I don’t believe you can point out all the positives fraternities do as a reason to support our children being members, but then ignore the negatives.</p>
<p>If fraternities booted out the “stupid people” and closed down the “bad” chapters we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.</p>
<p>We wouldn’t be discussing on a message board that young women may need to be cautious which houses they visit.</p>
<p>One of my sons is a fraternity member … and my brothers, cousins, father, uncles, grandfathers. If my son’s fraternity, while he was active, had done something dangerous and stupid, I would have been all over it.</p>
What would/could you have done? Yell at him? Make him quit? Time out? At some point, you would hope they would know better.</p>
<p>Accecil - I do find it offensive the way you are posting here. It is one thing to be frank and upfront, but it is another when you are rude. I really wonder if you would speak to someone in person like the way you are posting here.</p>
<p>ACcecil- I am with oldfort on this. I doubt you would have the nerve to speak in that tone to my face. Maybe you are a jerk IRL too, though. Just remember that thousand of people will read your snarky remarks and then discount you and your advice on further threads (not relate to Greek life) becase you have come off like a tool. It is about tone and respect and you have shown post after post that you can’t argue a point without resorting to immature snark. And I would say this to your face. </p>
<p>Especially if it was done as a group and the chapter involved in the incident has had a long history of doing it to the point of having a negative reputation not only on campus…but also locals and law enforcement. It leads many to believe the chapter and national leaderships aren’t effective in laying down the law to put an end to those antics. </p>
<p>Seems like that was the case with DKE from a few commenters here and from what I heard from Yale alums…including an Uncle who graduated two years behind an famous former Presidential alum who was a DKE member and some Yalies I know would rather forget. Hence…not sure it is limited to the non-elite schools. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’ve known of some families who upon finding out their child was involved in stupid/illegal activities…including those with their Greek organization threatened to cut off all college money for the child if he/she did not cease such activities/leave the organization…and actually followed through on that threat when the child balked.</p>
<p>Right!
You can’t hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick perverted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn’t we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn’t this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, ACCecil: isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do what you want to the frats, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America!</p>
<p>Are you kidding? Since when was leaving your car running against the law? Now let me color your shade of grey. Since when does a women walking into a fraternity party, maybe drinking and then become a victim of rape make that it all her fault? If truly frightens me that parents of college age children (or ANY children for that matter) have this attitude. And we wonder why this is a problem on our college campuses.</p>
<p>I assure you, if my daughter was raped at a party, despite how she may or not have been dressed, despite her blood alcohol level, she would be the victim of a violent crime. And as her mother, you bet your bottom dollar, that man would be held to the letter of the law. At that point I would not give a da*mn about his future, his career, his parents, his college loans, his alcohol abuse, his whatever. I would do whatever I could to ensure he spent his 25 to life thinking about what his parents should have taught in their home many years before. That is a very long time to spend in the big house. The big house where being class president, having a 4.0 and a 2400 on the SAT means nothing.</p>
I don’t think you quite get my point. It’s still the fault of the person who stole my car. But I acted imprudently by leaving it there with the motor running. I happen to think it’s imprudent for a young woman to go to a party at a frat with a bad reputation, and then to drink the punch. If she’s mistreated afterwards, it’s still the fault of the person who did it. Her imprudence doesn’t lessen the fault of the predator, but it makes it easier for the predator.</p>
<p>
In reality, her behavior will have a big impact on whether you will be able to hold that man to the letter of the law, because it is not so easy to prove the absence of consent. And you may find that what you taught your daughter in your home will become a relevant topic in the case, whether you want it to be or not.</p>
<p>That may be true, but one of the issues with covering the victim’s mistakes is that too often, it’s an irrelevant divergent point used to divert attention from the fact a crime was committed, one needs a criminal involved for a crime to have happened, and such discussions allow potential free passes to accused/convicted criminals and sketchy courtroom tactics/juror deliberations. </p>
<p>The few relatives/acquaintances who tend to dissect the actions of crime victims like the above tend to be justifiably regarded as victim-blaming a<strong>h</strong>es whose priorities are woefully misplaced by the rest of the family/friends in the social circle.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Depends on the jurisdiction. Some areas have passed laws which consent cannot be assumed if one or both parties are intoxicated by alcohol or other substances because they’re not in the right state of mind to be able to consent in the first place.</p>
<p>I never said anything about the party being at a Frat, which was a very direct choice for me, because like many posters before have been trying to shine light on, rape is not a frat issue.</p>
<p>(yes…I realize this started as a debate about frat or no frat…but we can all agree it has made a turn along the road)</p>
<p>This is not about what I have taught my daughter at my home…this is what I have taught my SONS. I don’t care if he is naked as a the day he was born and the condom package is open, if she changes her mind, seems too tipsy for consent, or he is not 100% she is a willing participant (and this goes for being in a committed relationship too…) he needs to move away. This in NOT a grey area.</p>
<p>If I were inclined to get easily offended, I would have a field day with this one from Bay:</p>
<p>“Fraternity membership will mirror the general population at the college. Fraternities at large lower-tier state schools probably appear to behave worse, because ALL of the student body is less inclined to be studious and responsible.”</p>
<p>ALL of the student body at lower-tiered state schools?</p>
<p>My point: I know what she is saying, and to some degree I forgive the elitism inherent here (sort of), but if I were a parent at such a school described I would have the option of throwing a fit like some of you have at lumping all those kids together. </p>
<p>Come on, we ALL make generalizations.</p>
<p>Bay, you are doing the same thing.</p>
<p>(and ps, maybe you can say less studious, but responsible is unfair)</p>
<p>Thank you. I know you have younger children and I do too (elementary age) but I am also about to be a grandmother and have kids in college and out of college. So basically…we have covered most ages in the scale. </p>
<p>This is the time to educated your children about the social ills found everywhere. The haters will hate, the cheerleaders will cheer, but when it comes down to life decisions it is between your child and his or her heart and or mind. It is in the darkest of times that the fundamentals you instill will rise to the top. Be bold, don’t just talk about stuff…really talk about it. Kids are talking about alcohol, drugs and sex in late elementary school. By the time get to middle school and go through the sex ed programs they have already been fed rumor and bad advise on the playground. Parents can level that playing field but parents have to have the intestinal fortitude to say the words. To talk about sex…all kinds…not just missionary 101. Condom should be a word you can’t be afraid to say and you should say it often. You can teach “no sex” but you have to prepare for them safe sex at the same time. You have to talk about bullying (because really isn’t that what hazing boils down too…) and why it is so destructive. I tell my kids today (and this was not the message 15 years ago…because who would have imagined how social media influences our children’s lives.) to behave as if the camera were rolling. To behave in a manor that if their behavior was on youtube tomorrow that they would not be shaking in their cowboy boots and that I would not be embarrassed to see. Almost every person they come into contact with today has a camera ready for the use. One bad decision, one piece of bad judgement might not be able to be swept under the rug. It could be on the internet forever. Life is not nearly as simple as it used to be where young adults could make foolish mistakes and rebound with a little hard work.</p>
<p>We may disagree with other people’s point of view, or even be offended with their views, but this is personal and uncalled for:
</p>
<p>The reason we “tell stories” about our kids is because those stories are first hand experience, not hearsay. I would rather tell my children’s experience than something I have heard from a friend or what I have seen on TV.</p>
<p>I am another parent who has never heard of decorating cooler and going off campus for a formal.</p>