<p>Thanks, college. I truly pay attention to your words, and agree, wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>I’ll bring this up today: always behave as if the camera were rolling.</p>
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Well, what have you taught her? I’ve taught mine not to drink the punch, and to stay away from untrustworthy people. This is no different, in my opinion, from teaching her not to wander around alone in a city late at night. She might still be the victim of a crime, of course.</p>
<p>Let me add that I think it’s important to distinguish between whether something actually is risky behavior and whether, in a better world, it shouldn’t be risky behavior.</p>
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<p>We went downtown for formals, typically held at hotels. They were tons of fun and I’ve got great memories. We may have been silly and giggly, but no one was stupid or destructive. Yes, girls stayed overnight with boys if both agreed to do so. They could have just as easily had sex back on campus and shooed a roommate out, or rented a hotel room in the college town. Couples who wanted to have sex found a way and those who didn’t didn’t. Contrary to popular belief, today’s college students didn’t invent hormones or sex.</p>
<p>Correction, I meant off campus as to another city. D1 went to many events off campus, but within the same college town.</p>
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<p>just try telling that to THEM. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Look, I don’t really have an overwhelmingly negative or positive opinion about greek life. I also don’t have an overwhelmingly negative or positive opinion on the issue of country clubs or bridge clubs or bicycle riding clubs or tennis clubs.</p>
<p>I think,hey, if you like the activity, go and have fun. If you don’t like the activity, walk or drive on by. Free country.</p>
<p>How about this: If your kid is willing to be hazed in order to join a group, maybe you have a heck of a lot more to be worried about than the greek system.</p>
<p>ACC – I know of one private “elite” university where the fraternities are just as notorious, indeed even more notorious, for bad behavior than any public university.</p>
<p>As for those Yale miscreants, I think an appropriate response would have been for someone to post on the Internet a list of names of all the participants in the “no means yes” incident (or the names of all members of the fraternity if the fraternity itself didn’t take immediate action against the offenders). This list could be a growing one of all males (“men” seems a bit too kind) who participate in similar episodes. It could turn into a reference for women on which males to avoid dating. If these males claim that they are merely exercising their right to free speech, then they should be glad to own up publicly to their words.</p>
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<p>Well, who said all Greek systems involve hazing? And what do you mean by hazing - was I “hazed” when I went with other pledge sisters to a fraternity and sang off-color songs? Or when guys wear a tie to class on Tuesdays?</p>
<p>How about this idea to think about: why not let fraternities and sororities do whatever initiation they want, but require them to reveal what it is before rush? In other words, no secret initiations. If a kid knows he’s going to be required to swim in vomit in advance, but joins anyway, does that change the issue at all?</p>
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<p>I have taught her many things. As it applies to this thread…</p>
<ol>
<li> Be constantly aware of your surroundings.</li>
<li> It is wise not to drink in sexually charged situations.</li>
<li> Always go to a party with a sorority sister (they have a very strict code as to never go to or leave a party alone…designated drivers are always on call for anyone, anywhere near or around campus…this DDs are sorority sisters who’s turn it is for this duty)</li>
<li> Never, ever trust a man who has too much to drink. “You’re beautiful, you’re special…etc” is just the booze talking. Just as Texas law does states that a women who is intoxicated cannot give consent, a man can’t give it either if he had been drinking.</li>
<li> Never be afraid of calling me. Ever. Never. Never. Ever. She knows if she has had too much to drink, too much fun, too much whatever, her father and I are the only two people on the earth that love her 100% unconditionally.</li>
<li> Never get behind the wheel of a car if you have taken a drink in the last 12 hours. If you had more than three, make that 24.</li>
<li> You don’t have to dress for church at a campus party, but showing your boobs or your butt is a one way ticket for a guy to see you for your just boobs and your butt (and she has a good set of both) If you want someone to be into you for your mind, dress your body accordingly.</li>
<li> If someone forces you to have sex against your will, call 911 and don’t take a shower. Then call me. I’ll probably get there faster.</li>
<li> Sex inside of a committed relationship is the best policy.</li>
<li> Birth control is your responsibility. Don’t rely on the guy to have a condom. No cover, no play. A pregnancy will derail your plans. Will it ruin your life? No. Children are a gift, but a gift better for your 20’s or 30’s.</li>
<li> Better to be a hero even if you think it will make your social life a zero. In other words, if you see something that is harmful or criminal, do what you have to do to stop it. If it is so out of control, get help. It is not worth living with the guilt or regret of inaction.</li>
<li> You have younger siblings. They watch you. They are sponges. Treat young men like you believe your brothers should be treated. They are treasures and emotional just like girls, they just don’t show it.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>And the boys…</p>
<ol>
<li> Be constantly aware of your surroundings.</li>
<li> It is wise not to drink in sexually charged situations.</li>
<li> If you are at a party and see you a girl that has had too much to drink, call a friend for her. Make sure she gets into the hands of someone who can get her home safely.</li>
<li> Never, ever trust a woman who has too much to drink. “You’re handsome, you’re wonderful…etc” is just the booze talking. Just as Texas law does states that a women who is intoxicated cannot give consent, a man can’t give it either if he had been drinking.</li>
<li> Never be afraid of calling me. Ever. Never. Never. Ever. He knows if he has had too much to drink, too much fun, too much whatever, his father and I are the only two people on the earth that love him 100% unconditionally.</li>
<li> Never get behind the wheel of a car if you have taken a drink in the last 12 hours. If you had more than three, make that 24.</li>
<li> Just because a girl doesn’t dress like mother teresa doesn’t make her a whore. Just because she is showing her boobs or her butt doesn’t mean she does not have a brain between her ears.<br></li>
<li> If someone pressures you to have sex with a girl, say no. This is your decision. And the girl’s decision. It has to be both of your choice. If you see a brother pressuring an intoxicated girl, step in. Better an angry drunk guy than an angry drunk guy with a rape charge.<br></li>
<li> Sex inside of a committed relationship is the best policy.</li>
<li> Birth control is your responsibility. Don’t rely on the girl to take the pill. No cover, no play. A $1.50 condom can prevent $150,000 in child support.</li>
<li> Better to be a hero even if you think it will make your social life a zero. In other words, if you see something that is harmful or criminal, do what you have to do to stop it. If it is so out of control, get help. It is not worth living with the guilt or regret of inaction.</li>
<li> You have younger siblings. They watch you. They are sponges. You also have sisters. Treat women like you believe they deserve to be treated. They are treasures and should be treated as such.</li>
</ol>
<p>Guess that sums it up…</p>
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<p>And by the same token, allow private universities/LACs* the freedom to permit/ban fraternities/sorority organizations and student memberships in them as they please. </p>
<p>Whether for positive/negative behavioral reasons…including initiations or moreso…they perceptions of whether the presence of such organizations is conducive/not conducive to the type of campus community they want to create. </p>
<ul>
<li>As private institutions aren’t bound to the same degree of mandated constitutionality as their public run counterparts…and even there…there are some exceptions…like Federal military service academies.</li>
</ul>
<p>"How about this idea to think about: why not let fraternities and sororities do whatever initiation they want, but require them to reveal what it is before rush? In other words, no secret initiations. "</p>
<p>Try Delta Upsilon. All ritual is out in the open. However, I consider the words that I spoke, the vows that I made and the secrets behind the symbols as sacred to me and mine. I would hate to see made public because it would have no meaning. I essentially know that these words are spoken by those who came before me, and that will be with others long after I am dust. It is not to be mocked or trivialized as old-fashioned, quaint or sappy by someone reading a blog. The same goes for the Masons, Knights of Columbus, etc. </p>
<p>Initiation is not a time when hazing occurs, when hazing happens. That is done during the many hours of pledgeship activities. The initiation is the final step before full membership.
Also, many of the alcohol deaths and injuries are not ablut forced drinking, but about voluntary binge drinking where coercion is seen because it is in a fraterntiy setting. If the death occurs in a dorm room was their coercion because your buddy cheered you on while doing a keg stand?</p>
<p>I would have no problem with everything being out in the open - oaths, symbols, handshakes, everything. One of the things I dislike about the whole process is the secrecy bit. I see no reason for it and do not think it adds anything to membership. I can’t remember my sorority’s oath, but I do remember the handshake.</p>
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<p>Nearly every fraternity death due to alcohol poisoning that I’ve read about is during a pledge hazing ritual. The one exception was the hazing of an active brother at Cornell, but this wasn’t voluntary either.</p>
<p>Deaths due to accidental falls that were essentially caused by alcohol are probably due to voluntary drinking, though.</p>
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<p>It would help (although I think you meant pledging instead of initiation). At least, there is more free choice involved. </p>
<p>However, that doesn’t mean that a university needs to sanction these activities or the organizations which sponsor them. Nor does it mean we as individuals need to respect their presence. In some cases (like MIT), the universities actually provide financial support to the Greek system.</p>
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<p>The college admission process is the king of secrecy; but not only do we put up with it, there has been a website created to fuel the monster we have a love/hate relationship with. And yes…before you go saying no one dies over college admission…yes they do. Suicide has and will continue to be an outcome of the rejection process of college admissions. It is just a little bit ironic that we want Universities to unveil sanctioned organizations yet we not only anticipate, we expect for their veils to remain in place.</p>
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<p>redpoint,
You got it! So funny how you see the offensiveness when I post generalizations, but are oblivious to it when done by those who share your point of view.</p>
<p>“The college admission process is the king of secrecy”</p>
<p>I don’t think that’s true. There is no national fraternity/sorority that allowed a journalist to observe membership selection and write a book about it. Wesleyan did. No national university expects admissions staff to take an oath never to reveal the selection procedure, even to a spouse. (Individual student information is protected by FERPA; I’m talking about the school’s practices.) No national sorority that I’m aware of will reveal things like how many votes it takes to accept a member; many colleges share that information.</p>
<p>Greek life is fine and dandy with me, but by objective measures, it’s far more secret than college admissions. Secret ritual is at the core of every social Greek group except Delta Upsilon.</p>
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<p>I never said that.</p>
<p>I think hazing is very, very rare.</p>
<p>I also think if a kid is willing to go through it, on either side, they’ve got some problems, in this day and age, given all the bullying education they get.</p>
<p>But, it does crack me up that I was defending your position and you “still” got defensive. LOLOL</p>
<p>I can tell you how the early rounds of recruitment lists are created from a general standpoint for sororities and I can tell you how the women are matched in recruitment, so that is not a big secret. </p>
<p>This is using the most popular computer system that many university Panhellenics use.
Round 1-everyone is seen. Based on number of houses and number of rounds, every PNM will rank the houses according to preference. If she has 12 houses and next round can retrurn to 8 she would rank her top 8 houses and then rank in descending order her least favorite chapters so a card would look like this:</p>
<p>1 ABC
1 DEF
1 GHI
2 RST
3 XYZ
That doesn’t mean that she cuts RST or XYZ but it means that she has ranked them lower in her matching. </p>
<p>At the same time, the computer will determine how many people sorority ABC can invite back for the next round. It will be determined based on historical yield. If ABC is a house that has not met quota, or is not a house that everyone puts at the top of the list, then they will need to invite more people to the next round. If DEF normally has every PNM ranking them first, then they will invite back fewer people.
Cuts in the first round can be deep, and it is generally after 15-20 minute sessions in the house. This is where letters of recs help, where legacy prefs come into play (doesn’t guarantee you a spot, but most sorority guidelines will get you through the first round), and cuts for grades and ECs will happen. So ABC saw 400 PNMs that day. They will list as first choice all legacies (though not a guarantee as at schools like UT and Alabama there are enough legacies to fill two pledge classes), those with letters of recs (not a guarantee, especially at SEC-type houses) and those that may have made an impression. This is where the good resume comes into play, since the sorority barely knows you at this point. If panhel says you can go through recruitment with a 2.8 but ABC expects a 3.0, then anyone below their GPA is cut from the list. The remaining people are ranked (and that will always remain a secret as to how they are chosen) and those names are fed into the computer. If both Suzy PNM and ABC rank each other high on the list, then Suzy goes back to ABC.
Sometimes Suzy PNM ranks ABC as last on her list but gets invited back. That is because ABC ranked her high on the list, and the sororities that Suzy loved (like DEF) ranked her lower on the list. </p>
<p>At schools using this computer system, if a PNM attends all parties and continues to rank all her options, if she makes it to preference night and ranks all the houses that she attends, she will get a bid. Say Suzy attends ABC, DEF and GHI. She loves GHI and ranks them 1st, then DEF, then ABC. Her name will appear on all three pref lists. If quota is 40, the chapter will rank put their top 40 on the list, then rank in order of preference the remaining people that attended pref. If Suzy is in the top 40 on the list at GHI, then she is matched with her 1st choice. Great, done. If she is below teh top 40, she may still get her 1st choice. If all the PNMs that attended the GHI party rank them first, then only those top 40 are guaranteed a spot. So lets say that 35 PNMs ranked GHI first. leaving 5 spots left to fill. If Suzy is number 42 on the list, she will get GHI as her choice. The matching will continue until all 40 spots are filled.
If Suzy PNM is number 52 on the list for GHI, she won’t be chosen, but then we turn to her 2nd choice DEF. If she is in their top 40, she will be a member of DEF. If she is not ranked highly, then DEF will continue down their list until they meet their quota. If she is not highly ranked by DEF, then she would continue down the list to ABC. That is how you see someone not getting their top choice.
Now if Suzy is not ranked high on any list, but she listed all the groups, she will be added to one of the three chapters as a quota addition. So a chapter may have a pledge class of 42. Suzy will never know that she is a quota addition. She will just know that she was chosen by GHI for membership. That struggling chapter ABC may have only had 60 PNMs show up for pref, and they were not ranked high enough among the PNMs to get a full quota. They can then offer snap bids that night to women that dropped from recruitment or did not get placed (and are not eligible for quota additions because they listed only one house). Say that Suzy’s best friend only wrote down GHI on her sheet, but was not placed there. ABC can call her that night to offer her a snap bid. She can accept, and the only people that will know will be her and select members of the panhel council and the membership committee of ABC. She can show up on bid day and party with her new sisters. </p>
<p>Forgive me for spelling and grammar errors. I also know many amazing women that can explain this better than I can, but they are not on CC.</p>
<p>And here I thought the college admission process was complicated:)</p>
<p>Bay-- my point was that you and everyone in the world makes generalizations about groups of people. This is not a good thing. It can be maligning, but it’s often about expediency–a form of social shorthand. You were complaining about ACCecils generalization and then went ahead and made one yourself.</p>
<p>I see your point, I do, but I find no need to defend fraternities.</p>