Top colleges admissions without AP sciences?

Parents Forum
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<p>Chipper, </p>

<p>at my D's h/s councelors strongly discourage students from taking more than 2 APs a year, which the students do nevertheless and then complain "they have ho life". So, I guess, it's not entirely my D's problem - almost everybody (who is interested in good academic u/g options) at her school complains about being overstressed. AFAIK, my D is considered pretty smart among her classmates at her very high-achieving and competitive school (surely, though, she is not the fastest or the most organized high-schooler in the world ;-)).</p>

<p>After taking Calc BC with my D's current teacher some people, who are even less of the "math persons" than my D is, known to go to some elite colleges to study something absolutely math-less (like, journalism or drama writing) and still be able to help with the Calc assignments to their engineering major dormmates. :-) And her school has always taken the most awards at all the local math contests.</p>

42

<p>blossom,</p>

<p>"if your D ends up in a social science she'll have to take Stat's in college anyway"</p>

<p>Why? Can't people test out of the courses they have already studied?</p>

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<p>What I don't understand about your hs is what they offer a senior in math if they have already taken calc BC. Do they offer a higher level math course, as they high schools in my area do? Do they offer an independent study for someone like your daughter and the other math kids who win all the math awards?</p>

<p>I ask this because at our local high schools, calc bc is considered a senior course. If the rare math whiz kid completed calc bc before that year, they offer a higher level course, and at my kid's private school, an independent study. They don't recommend not taking any math at all - especially for such accomplished math kids.</p>

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<p>"Why? Can't people test out of the courses they have already studied?"</p>

<p>That depends upon the individual school's policy. Many times, no, they can't get credit for taking the course, but it can help them take courses beyond the AP without having to take an intro or basic course in that area.</p>

<p>The UCs do give credit for AP courses in more instances than the privates, it seems to me.</p>

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<p>i'm scared I'm going to have the same problem of not being able to continue a rigorous courseload for senior year. I already have my junior year schedule tentatively planned and I'm taking: AP Gov't, AP Macro/Micro Econ, AP Stats, AP Physics B, Math 12H, Health (required), College Sociology Honors, and AP Lang.<br>
I think I might just die.
And then senior year, I know I'll be taking: AP Calc AB, AP Euro, AP Lit, AP Art History, College Marketing Honors, and a few other electives. I'm contemplating taking Forensic Sciences Honors (I have my 4 years of science b/c I took Earth Science Honors for h.s. credit in 8th grade). Even with forensic science (which is a semester course , I'd be taking 3 pds of electives, meaning 6 electives all together, as opposed to the two electives I'm taking next year (one being required) </p>

<p>AP coursework COMPLETELY depends on the teacher. My APUSH teacher this year is hard: we get an out of class essay every 2 weeks, an in class essay ever 1-2 weeks, a m.c. packet due every week, a vocab bank due every week, and a test every 2 weeks (about). We also have reading every night (10-20 pages), and during breaks we have to read whole chapters.
But, I'd say my hardest class this year is English 11H, which just proves that everything has to do with the teacher. This teacher is completely insane. We had a test the other day, to be taken in 45 minutes, including 40 m.c., a 5 para essay, and 3 fill in quotation charts. We have a ton of work every night, no extra credit, extremely hard grading, and did I mention a ton of work?
I know for a fact, AP Lang next year will be the hardest AP Class (not the test, just the clas itself) I will ever take. The teacher who does it is retiring after next year, but is known to be THE MOST RESPECTED in the whole school. She's amazing. Every kid who's had her has said that she helped them so much its unbelievable, and that when they went to college, they were able to lol at their friends taking Freshman English and having trouble, while they took higher level courses and still breezed through.</p>

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<p>alamode - why are you taking so many courses for your junior year? Why do you need AP stats and the sociology course? It seems like 5 core subjects, and very substantial ones at that, would be enough.</p>

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<p>well, I'm taking AP stats simply because that is 1) the usual schedule for kids taking 12H math in 11th grade and 2) its the only way I can take an AP math in junior year.
It is, though, the one AP I might drop.<br>
And Sociology is only a 1/2 year course that I'm taking because I'm seriously interested in sociology and related fields as a career path.</p>

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<p>Is 12H math a year-long course? I don't see why you would need another AP like Stats considering the others you're taking. </p>

<p>No foreign language? </p>

<p>I also don't understand taking AP Euro and AP Art History, but no chem or physics.<br>
Have you sat down with you counsellor or advisor and gone over your schedule for the next two years?</p>

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<p>A.S.A.P.,</p>

<p>"what they offer a senior in math if they have already taken calc BC." </p>

<p>Well, AP Statistics, I guess. The Calc BC used to be the senior course, but with so many academically strong kids in our area they changed the policy and let them move a year up, on average, in their math studies.</p>

<p>"Do they offer a higher level math course, as they high schools in my area do? Do they offer an independent study for someone like your daughter and the other math kids who win all the math awards?"</p>

<p>We've never heard of it. I guess, we'll need to check with the gc. The most common thing people do at her school when they run out of the school offerings suitable to them is takin cc classes or some kind of online studies (EPGY, CTY etc.). </p>

<p>The thing is, considering herself a humanities person, my D would probably be motivated enough to seek and take out-of-school courses in humanities (like foreign language or psychology), but I doubt about the same in case of math classes with all the logistics involved. Taking Stat AP at her school seemed like the reasonable compromise between her deisre of not stopping math studies entirely and not sweating much about it. :-)</p>

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<p>myau - I see the dilemma. Personally, I think the change your school made was shortsighted. It leaves too many kids without a rigorous senior math course, which, if you talk to as many adcoms as I have after getting two kids through the process, is what they prefer. Maybe not "require" - but prefer.
Stats is no match in higher level thinking to calc, nor will it prepare kids for the challenges of advanced calc in college. It leaves a whole year "gap" for those who are planning to take advanced math.</p>

<p>I can see why your D would choose it, under the circumstances.
Good luck to your daughter. It sounds like she's a great student, and I'm sure she'll be accepted to some fine schools.
If she chooses not to take ap chem, I would encourage the foreign language continuation, just to get the core course # up to 4.</p>

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<p>At my son's hs, some of the kids talked the AP Calc teacher into teaching a multivariable course as a followup to BC calc. The first year, it was offered zero period (6:30, I think). This year, they worked it into the regular schedule. Dedicated kids AND teacher.</p>

<p>myau -
I like the idea of language at a CC. The thing to remember is that your daughter can't conform to everybody's admissions expectations. Especially at the most competitive schools, jumping through all the hoops does not produce any certainty of a fat envelop next sprint. As look as your D is taking a challenging course load, I think its ok for the most part. Could it affect admissions at a competitive school? Well, sure it could - but it could be that language courses at the cc would be more attractive to a particular college on a particular day.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
but it could be that language courses at the cc would be more attractive to a particular college on a particular day

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's my impression that foreign language is always looked upon favorably.
It's hard to have too much foreign language on your transcript, and it's a very useful thing to have, no matter what you intend to study.</p>

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<p>A friend of mine got into an HYP school with 4 years of regular math and science classes (zero honors and APs). This person, much like your daughter, does exceptionally well in humanities and had 3 800's on humanities-related sections of the SAT/SAT II, among other [numerous] things. She will join the class of 2011 in the fall.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"what they offer a senior in math if they have already taken calc BC."</p>

<p>Well, AP Statistics, I guess.

[/quote]
If that is all that the school offers, then there is no way any college will hold it against the student for taking AP Stats senior year -- all you need is to have the GC note that fact in the school report..... just like my d. asked her GC to note the limited math/science offerings at her school. </p>

<p>The colleges look favorably on students who go outside or beyond the offerings of their high school to pursue extra challenge -- but they do not hold it against any student who does not take that step. </p>

<p>They also look at those things in the context of the students interests: so if the kid has essentially exhausted the math offerings at the high school, and the essays make it clear that the kid is leaning toward humanities: -- nobody is going to be thinking she should have signed up for EPGY or enrolled in community college courses. It's not a deficient high school curriculum in any case -- it is a kid who took an accelerated route and ended up with a lighter schedule as a result of the hard work from the previous years. Yes, the colleges like to see seniors with strong courseloads, but they aren't crazy. It make sense that at this point your d. would be using the extra time she earned to pursue her passions. </p>

<p>I almost think that sometimes the effort to do everything "right" for the top colleges backfires, because it kind of muddies the water and makes it harder for a clear picture of the applicant to emerge.</p>

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<p>A.S.A.P.:</p>

<p>"Is 12H math a year-long course?"</p>

<p>Yes. </p>

<p>"I don't see why you would need another AP like Stats considering the others you're taking."
Stats at my school isn't the hardest AP and the teacher is really good, loves the subject, and is willing to help as much as possible. I'm going to try it and drop it if I don't like it or its just adding a lot of undoable work or something. </p>

<p>"No foreign language? "</p>

<p>I really can't. I've already taken 3 years anyways. The only thing offered now is AP French (there is a College 200H course, but it is combined with the AP course, so its stupid to not get the AP credit, but have to do the same work) and it is only offered at the same time as AP Lang, which I really want to take b/c of the teacher. My only option is to take it as an independent study, which I don't want to do because even if I did take the class, I wouldnt take the AP because the teacher is horrible. There is only one French teacher in my whole school, and he cannot teach. People play cards during class. Its unfair because Spanish kids get about 5 teachers in the department and are offered both AP Lang and Lit. :/</p>

<p>"I also don't understand taking AP Euro and AP Art History, but no chem or physics. "</p>

<p>I've already taken Earth Science, Biology and Chemistry Honors, and I'm taking AP Physics nas a junior. For senior year, I can take either AP Chem or Bio, Forensics Honors, or Marine Bio Honors. I'm not exactly a science person, and I hate chemistry. And I had the Biology teacher already, and I don't think I will do well because she is not a good teacher and I'm not really good at it or something. My school has something called "Recurring Themes," offered for seniors, which includes AP Lit, Euro, and Art History, and intentionally synchronizes the courses so that you are learning of the same time periods at the same time, so that you can draw conclusions between classes. Like you can use outside information for Lit and Art in a History essay. </p>

<p>"Have you sat down with you counsellor or advisor and gone over your schedule for the next two years?"</p>

<p>Not completely. We hand in a tentative scheudle and will be called in later to see if it fits, and make whatever changes necessary. Mine is a relatively typical schedule for a student of my advanced level at my high school, except that most kids take AP Spanish, and some decide to take AP Chem or Bio instead of Physics, or do it senior year.</p>

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<p>My senior S is taking AP Chem this year and it's his hardest course. (He has 3 other APs: Comp, Lit, Calc AB, and Honors Physics.) These are all courses he wanted, though. He does feel he wouldn't have had a life had he added AP Euro, which he originally wanted to do.</p>

<p>FWIW, I think the OP's D has already shown who she is and demonstrated why she should be admitted to selective schools. If science isn't where she shines and isn't what she wants, she shouldn't kill herself taking it.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If science isn't where she shines and isn't what she wants, she shouldn't kill herself taking it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Myau- this is true, but didn't you say she was thinking about cognitive science as an interest and possible major?<br>
I guess I would encourage the chem for a couple of reasons.
As it stands, her senior year will be light with only 3 core courses. While she could take a language at a cc, the logistics of that take her away from her high school and would eat up time just in transit. That seems like it would add to the stress overall.
She has an interest in science ( this girl's problem is that she likes and is good at everything!) and finishing off with a science in her last year would balance out the humanities and music courses, adding needed "weight" to the math/ science part of her senior transcript. I certainly wouldn't insist that she do this or be disappointed if she chose not to because of stress. That should be her call. I'd just point out the advantages - it would solve two problems. Her senior year would not look "light" without having to travel off campus, (most applicants at top schools will have at least 4 core courses. See HeliMomNYCs son as a typical top school applicant) and it would answer the "4 years of science" question.</p>

<p>Of course, the most important thing is to feel good, stay healthy, and not worry so much about getting into a "top school", but rather one where the fit is right and she'll thrive.</p>

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<p>*Myau- this is true, but didn't you say she was thinking about cognitive science as an interest and possible major? *</p>

<p>Well, mostly it's like her friends suggested to her that if she likes music and languages and also has an analitical mind, the cognitive science direction might be interesting for her to explore. She has no clear idea what exactly that cog sci thing is, and neither do I. :-)</p>

<p>Her ideas about what she wants to major in is very unclear at this point, but she is certain that she'd like to continue music studies and learn as many languages as possible.</p>

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<p>"I guess I would encourage the chem for a couple of reasons.
As it stands, her senior year will be light with only 3 core courses. While she could take a language at a cc, the logistics of that take her away from her high school and would eat up time just in transit. That seems like it would add to the stress overall.
She has an interest in science ( this girl's problem is that she likes and is good at everything!) and finishing off with a science in her last year would balance out the humanities and music courses, adding needed "weight" to the math/ science part of her senior transcript. I certainly wouldn't insist that she do this or be disappointed if she chose not to because of stress. That should be her call. I'd just point out the advantages - it would solve two problems. Her senior year would not look "light" without having to travel off campus, (most applicants at top schools will have at least 4 core courses."</p>

<p>Myau, I can only agree witht the above. Since we live in an area which has a huge # of strongly academic students [Silicon Valley] your D would be helping her chances of getting into reach college's, if that is someting she wants to shoot for, if she takes AP Chem her Sr year. Whenever possible, ad-coms look for an increasingly challenging progression of classes through HS. The colleges will see, from the profile sent with your D's transcript, that she did not take the most challenging course load offered by her HS her Sr year if she doesn't. Sorry, but that's just my 2 c's, having just been through the process last year with my son, who could be your D's twin. It's unfair, but that's the way it is nowadays.</p>

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<p>On the other hand, if the travel and scheduling logistics are not too complicated in their particular case, the CC option (still providing that pesky 4-th subject) may yield better result: exploring several subjects which are closer to the student's interests (Spanish/psychology/linguistics/bio?) and at the same time requiring less strain (two or three evenings a week and less homework). </p>

<p>Actually, some of the classes may have an online or video option (or how about EPGY AP Physics B?)</p>