Torturing mother as an extra-curricular activity

Parents Forum
41

<p>Anxious, yes, I think it would absolutely be to his benefit if my son could accept my administrative assistance through this process, as this is my strength (I am organized!), while it is definitely his weakness. The question at this point is whether he has the maturity to accept the help, since lately the mere mention of the word college can literally send his running out of the room. I have so far tried to stress that my objective through this is just to try to ensure that he has the greatest number of options in the end so he can find a place where he can be happy, although externally anyway, he often seems bent on assigning sleazy motives to me (i.e., "You only care about prestigeous places".) This really could not be further from the truth, but I suppose it is easier in many ways for him to accuse me of being a status-driven nutcase than to face his own anxiety about what he wants and whether he can achieve it.</p>

<p>(Parenthetically, I am a psychologist myself, so while I think I really do understand many of the dynamics at play here, that doesn't mean it isn't awful to live through, or that I don't feel like bopping him over the head!)</p>

42

<p>recent quote from my 20 yr. old: "if I do it now you will think that I did it because you nagged me to death and then you will never stop nagging me....so I'm not going to do it." UGGHHHHH....</p>

43

<p>Blossom, thank you. You are quite wise indeed.</p>

44

<p>From the movie Shakespeare in Love:

[quote]
Philip Henslowe: Mr. Fennyman, allow me to explain about the theatre business. The natural condition is one of insurmountable obstacles on the road to imminent disaster.</p>

<p>Hugh Fennyman: So what do we do?</p>

<p>Philip Henslowe: Nothing. Strangely enough, it all turns out well.</p>

<p>Hugh Fennyman: How?</p>

<p>Philip Henslowe: I don't know. It's a mystery.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Just substitute "college application" for "theatre."</p>

45

<p>Washdad, LOL.
Except it doesn't always just turn out.
My best friend is paying the price- her son put off getting community service for Florida Brights so she's paying more. Her son put off getting his paperwork in for a dorm so she's paying more. Her son put off getting his lifesaving certification renewed so he's getting paid minimum wage instead of $15/hour this summer and she has to help him with his insurance now, so she's paying more.</p>

<p>She's decided from now on she's going to kick him in the pants a little more.</p>

46

<p>I have a D who was doing the application process all on her own, so no issue in that realm (we won't discuss the other ways she and I annoy each other)</p>

<p>What I did do that seemed to be a help in the Administrative Assistant side was get the "supplies"</p>

<p>stamps
envelopes
pens, pencils, whiteout
make sure we had extra ink for the printers
folders
gave her the credit card #s, all dad's and my info- birth, schools, etc, and whatever other data she might have needed
and the like</p>

<p>I put them in her desk in a nice little rack thing, this way she had all she needed</p>

<p>THis way she didn't have to ask for stuff, and could "own" more of the process</p>

<p>If she needed something, it was easy to ask for it</p>

<p>Also, I still to this day, have not read one essay, she wanted to keep that process between her and her GC and teachers</p>

<p>I think if you help set the boundaries, they don't freak so much, as if we think they can't cope, but I did tell my D that if I slip and ask, just don't be snippy but keep me up to date, and we would do that once or twice a week</p>

<p>Something else I did was buy those magazines about colege, they are all pretty much the same, but I would just throw them on her bed, or leave stratigically in the bathroom, she would read them, and while much was repetitive, the magazines would say what I was saying</p>

<p>I am NOT saying do nothing for those that are not taking care of business, but maybe approach it differently</p>

<p>If it does affect OUR $$ though, its okay to treat them like a 15 year old if they are to lazy to care....
ANd her friends would borrow them as well, it was an easy way to ease into the process</p>

47

<p>I remain skeptical about the everything turns out ok in the end philosophy. Ultimately, I doubt it will turn out fine in the end unless DS actually DOES something. Let's keep our fingers crossed. Sometimes I think he believes that his being unusual and charming is enough.</p>

48

<p>Washdad........you quoted "Shakespeare in Love".....your wife is so lucky!</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
Ultimately, I doubt it will turn out fine in the end unless DS actually DOES something.

[/quote]
As a 48 year old unorganized procrastinator I'm going to jump on the side of the next generation. I've got one of these guys in my house also and it's (somewhat) killing my wife ... ultimately the argument that convinces my wife is well kid #2 has always been this way and what big thing have gone awry? The answer is nothing ... there have been blips where being more organized and proactive would have helped ... but nothing major has gone wrong. And kid #2 (and dad) would probably claim that, for them, the time pressure of doing things later than the well-organized person would leads to a energized higher quality work than if it was done well in advance. (For example, if I had written my college essays well in advance they probably would have had less structure and grammar issues ... however they would have come off flat and not brought out my voice ... if you want my energy and passion; it almost always requires time pressure). Please do not assume the approach the works best for you and makes you comfortable works best for others and makes them feel comfortable.</p>

50

<p>This is the funniest thread. I thought it was going to be a list of funny ECs for the endless justifications for sitting around doing nothing. Instead of finding a job, my younger S is counting and wrapping all the spare change in the house. So far he is well over $800.00. He cut a deal with my H who won’t give him his cut until all the pennies are wrapped.</p>

<p>On topic…Choices, give lots of choices. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I think if you help set the boundaries, they don't freak so much, as if we think they can't cope, but I did tell my D that if I slip and ask, just don't be snippy but keep me up to date, and we would do that once or twice a week

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Citygirlsmom makes a good point. To avoid these little power struggles, I turn control over to the person while I maintain the boundaries (quietly and in the background so they don’t even know I’m present). It goes something like this, “I know you don’t want me to nag you about deadlines or be involved in what you can manage for yourself. I only ask that you calendar all deadlines, so the whole family is aware of each others movements.”</p>

<p>I’ve been doing this with 2 boys for a very long time managing big projects or summer AP homework. I just talk to them. Both are very different, but both want to manage things for themselves. With younger S, we had the what do you want to accomplish this summer and how do you want to manage your free time talk. He calendared a week off to decompress, play video games, count change, hang with friends, golf and what not. Now he is busily on to week 1 of his summer calendar without any prodding. </p>

<p>To monitor them, I’ve found that they are more responsive to questions like, “So how’s it going? What do you have planned for today? Is there anything you need help with? What kind of materials are you going to need from the office supply store?” This is not unlike how I discuss events with my husband.</p>

<p>To 3togo’s point, both my younger disorganized, creative S and my older more organized S prefer taking deadlines to the very end. They like the time pressure to focus. Both have never missed critical deadlines. They make it too close for my comfort, but I can live with their style. Both have adjusted to small failures and learn from them. The calendar helps prevent the big ones.</p>

<p>Full disclosure, I used to think I was so clever about being behind the scenes and until my older S, who is out of state for the summer, called the other day and asked younger S, “so has Mom had the ‘how are you going to manage your summer plans’ talk yet?” They had a good laugh at my expense.</p>

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<p>3togo, what we as parents have discovered is we have to pick up the pieces</p>

<p>SOmetimes, when my Ds are running late, they don't understand why I am uptight, they say, well, we always get there on time- the movie, the show, whatever</p>

<p>well, that is because mom NEEDS to get there on time, so she drives "quickly" and then has to deal with the annoying cluless drivers</p>

<p>it took one time for me to leave them, but I do deserve the right, if they aren't taking care of business and have had all the opportunity to do so, to get cranky</p>

<p>most likely, they will pull it all together, and that is why its smart for us to get all the stuff they might need organized for them, so we aren't running to the store to get stamps or envelopes, or they aren't calling at a bad time for the credit card #</p>

<p>and we do have the "right" to check in, we do that with our spouses, our bosses, our employees, etc, so we should be able to with our offspring without them getting all huffy</p>

<p>its something that needs to be discussed at the beginning of the process, so everyone is on the same page</p>

<p>I love how procrastinators want everyone to adjust to them, and the reason stuff hasn;t gone seriouslly wrong is usually because the organized person is on top of it, and reminds, etc</p>

<p>oh yeah, the CALENDER!!! an essestional component for the college process- with dates for tests, prom, all the other stuff along with college admissions stuff, so that as 3Ks says, we are all on the same page</p>

52

<p>While we're talking black and white and making these issues simple the world is full of gray but now I'll go back to the black and white world </p>

<p>
[quote]
3togo, what we as parents have discovered is we have to pick up the pieces

[/quote]
agree with this one ... although I'd probably word it more like help them learn from the consequences of their actions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
most likely, they will pull it all together, and that is why its smart for us to get all the stuff they might need organized for them, so we aren't running to the store to get stamps or envelopes, or they aren't calling at a bad time for the credit card #

[/quote]
Or establish ground rules and let them deal with the consequences of their actions ... my kids know they need to ask for help and the lead-time required ... short of that they will be hoofing it, paying for cab, or catching public transportation. And yes I understand the importance of college applications ... just have a different definition of parental support through the process than many of you</p>

<p>
[quote]
and we do have the "right" to check in, we do that with our spouses, our bosses, our employees, etc, so we should be able to with our offspring without them getting all huffy

[/quote]
agree with this one also </p>

<p>
[quote]
its something that needs to be discussed at the beginning of the process, so everyone is on the same page

[/quote]
yup again</p>

<p>
[quote]
I love how procrastinators want everyone to adjust to them, and the reason stuff hasn;t gone seriouslly wrong is usually because the organized person is on top of it, and reminds, etc

[/quote]
hmm .. this is my kid's college application process not mine so why are my organizational/planning needs relevant ... to me it seem my kids needs should drive the process. For us, not picking up their failures over the last 18 years will have taught them how to deal with these situations including asking for help when needed. </p>

<p>(To add some gray until it comes to financial aid applications in which I am a prime player).</p>

53

<p>Some excellent points here... I am especially liking 3ks's calendar suggestion, which might actually be feasible for us, since S recently, much to my shock, has rigged up an online calendar where he can note his appointments/deadlines which enables BOTH of us to see it as he makes additions. This might well be a minimally intrusive way to manage things next year. Still, I worry about the management of papers and information, as up until the last week of school, S was still carrying around mangled and illegible homework assigments dating back from as far as November in his backpack. We have a running joke that someday we are going to find several small furry animals in there who have decided it is a hospitable environment in which to make their home. On his desk yesterday I found stuff from 10th grade (he just finished 11th.) It is scary. I understand that it is not his style to handle college applications like a military operation, but there has to be some happy medium. Attention to detail is not his strong point.</p>

<p>BTW, just to give some background here, my DH is just the same. Some 30+ years ago when he was doing his college applications, he spilled oil from a tin of smoked oysters on his Harvard application (which he was doing the night before, of course) and got rejected. He likes to think that this is the reason, but who knows??</p>

54

<p>what I told my D was that I should know where her stuff is, her passwords, etc, or to at least put that stuff on her buliten boards</p>

<p>if something happened to her, she got sick, or broke her arm, or something, that I could step up and double check deadlines, and stuff</p>

<p>and she agreed that ALL the college stuff needed to be in one spot, in files, etc</p>

<p>we also gathered up all her records from summer programs, etc and put in a file so she had easy access</p>

<p>something else that is helpful is creating a brag sheet or resume, often kids forget all the stuff they have done, etc, so sitting down with them and talking through the hs years together is a way of making sure stuff isn't forgotten and a way to start the process in a non-naggy way</p>

<p>one thing that was good for my D was a bulletin board dedicated to the college hunt....we organized by school, etc...she could pin stuff up and such</p>

<p>sometimes when old systems fail, bring in new tools</p>

55

<p>What the old hands on this board will tell you is that mom and dad need to STOP picking up the pieces in order for the disorganized kid or the lazy kid or the irritatingly late kid to stop being enabled in their behavior, but WHATEVER. I thought my kid was going to starve in college, get locked out of his room; flunk every class; lose his $300 textbooks, oversleep for every lab, etc. like he had in HS. Guess what... once mom stopped nagging ('cause I wasn't there to see it or to know when his deadlines were....) he stepped up to the plate.</p>

<p>To the OP-- some of us oldtimers are suggesting that when you back away your son's cylinders will start to click. You can either have a frustrating, stressful year with you riding herd to get things done on time, on budget, to your level of satisfaction, or you can step back and watch him learn to manage for himself.</p>

<p>For the record-- my son locked himself out of his dorm exactly zero times in college-- lost his house key at least once a week at home. Why? 'cause when he lost the house key someone showed up to bail him out (plus give the speech about being responsible, taking care of his belongings, not inconveniencing the rest of the family, etc.). During orientation he was told that it would cost $75 or something vile to replace his dorm key-- guess what-- no lost keys. No speech on responsibility by MIT-- they just charge the kid for the lost key... so, no more lost keys, no more speeches, no more Mom and Dad enabling his helplessness. He handed in one lab late... one time, in four years. Grade automatically went down from an A to a B, no questions asked, no excuses. That was the end of the late homework. Showed up late for a quiz; told he wasn't going to be able to take the quiz. Kid bought a $10 Timex alarm clock at the bookstore-- problem solved.</p>

<p>Jamimom, one of the oldtimers who was a font of wisdom PLUS a phenomenal parent, used to explain to the newbies that college was a socially acceptable halfway house.... and you just can't see that until you're there. Kids do laundry, learn to cook, take out garbage, balance their checkbook, get jobs when they need money, refill the gas on their friends car after borrowing it... all these things you've been nagging about at home with no results. Sort of crazy!</p>

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<p>Blossom, the OP's son is not in college yet. It is true about the kids changing their ways when they go off on their own. They step up to the plate, or at least, we parents do not find out about it when they don't. Those little 'emergencies in the night' are out of sight, out of mind.</p>

<p>Blossom, you let your kids take care of it all (the applications, the forms, the scholarship/financial aid stuff, etc)...OK, that worked for you. For a lot of folks, though, it won't work. Their kids may need a little handholding, a little advice here and there, a little prodding, some reminding. </p>

<p>Many parents, and I'm one of them, have sons who don't automatically pick up their towels, clean out their trunks, do their own wash, keep track of all their deadlines and appointments. They're not pouring over scholarship websites and filling out applications right and left. They're not investigating hundreds of potential colleges to find out how their programs are different. What should a parent do with an 17/18 year like that? Leave them alone and wait until they graduate from high school and realize that they're not going anywhere in the fall?</p>

<p>I've read stuff that successful seasoned veterans of the college and scholarship process say (like Curmugeon), and it does seem that being a 'cheerleader/coach' kind of parent works!</p>

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<p>Clearly the Big Question here is how much, through the college application process, to disengage vs. maintain some kind of hopefully benign presence. It is a fine line for sure. The main difficulty, as I see it, is that if he messes up in a major way here, the consequences really are huge. Throughout his high school career there is not much that his father and I have insisted on, we have only encouraged him to do the best he can. He goes to a very left of center private school which, for better or worse, is notoriously lax in its adherence to deadlines for assignments and I don't know if he truly grasps that the rest of the world doesn't view them as a kind of broad suggestion of a ballpark range of dates. The schools he has expressed at least some interest in are not by any means easy to get into and unless he focuses I start having recurrent nightmares of the year after graduation with him living in the house with us, playing his accordion in the subway for cash and finely honing his juggling skills.</p>

<p>I am sorry if I am ranting, but it seems I have happily found a forum in which to vent. Undoubtedly, I need a combination of hand-holding and tough love.</p>

58

<p>"this is my kid's college application process not mine so why are my organizational/planning needs relevant ... to me it seem my kids needs should drive the process. For us, not picking up their failures over the last 18 years will have taught them how to deal with these situations including asking for help when needed. </p>

<p>(To add some gray until it comes to financial aid applications in which I am a prime player)."</p>

<p>This is where the black and white turn to gray. Half the battle of finances is solved when, through careful research, a good list of colleges is generated that provide institutional merit/need based scholarships to a student in your particular student's shoes. And, when that student provides a strong enough applicant package to attract the eyes of these scholarship committees. </p>

<p>Several schools that my son applied to use the application for admission to select their pool of potential scholarship candidates, and also have an "early" application deadline in order to be considered for that pool. For example- GEORGIA TECH. So a student who is not on top of deadlines, or does not put thought into his application to Georgia Tech will automatically lose the opportunity for a Presidential Scholarship.</p>

<p>Likewise, the Honors Program application for U of Georgia was the basis upon which my son was given a scholarship. If he hadn't filled out this application in addition to the admissions application, he wouldn't have received a scholarship. Guess who found out all these interesting tid bits? Me!</p>

<p>So the application is not really the 'end all' for the student, and it ain't when the fat lady sings. And if doing a slipshod job results in a lack of scholarships, or admittances, that eventually comes back to haunt mom and dad, in one way or another.</p>

59

<p>CC tip ‘o the day: no smoked oysters while completing apps. Check. Momoschki that image of your H is too funny! </p>

<p>Seriously, our younger S is very much like you describe yours--backpack and all. Our younger is also very similar to my H who has managed his life quite fine. It works out--they just marry someone who complements their style.</p>

<p>Really a lot of the tussle can be avoided by simply asking for their input first. The limit is that there will be a calendar, so everyone is clear about the upcoming events. It really minimizes the overwhelming stress of the unknown. </p>

<p>You can create your own calendar to minimize your anxiety, and then ask your son how he wants to manage the many tasks ahead. My older S likes excel spreadsheets. I prefer a master calendar. Younger S uses a school organizer and writes stuff on his hands (even in the summer). We coordinate and keep off each others toes. By staying out in front, you can ask the right questions to help your son become aware of the many decisions ahead. Learning to manage the app process will pay off later for your S. </p>

<p>There is no right way. I just happen to be one of those ‘teachable moments’ type of parents. I like teaching the softer life skills. Afterall, we're raising adults to send off to college.</p>

<p>Blossom is providing nice balance, and I think momoschki is hearing her. I too enjoyed Jamimom. I still have many of her threads bookmarked. I am a believer in the lessons of failure & natural consequences, believe me there have been many, but there is real value in ‘taking time for training’. </p>

<p>As an aside, my younger S developed his organizational style in MS when he forgot, yes forgot, to give an extra credit oral presentation that he had been working on for weeks. It was first period. It was on one of his favorite subjects. He practiced it at home before he left. He forgot to mention it in class. When he got into the car afterschool, he took one look at me and raced back across the courtyard. I waited and waited, he finally appeared and told me what had happened. He caught the teacher and worked out a plan for the next morning. From that day forward, he writes reminders all over his hands. He is a rising JR and looks tattooed on some days.</p>

<p>[/end positive parenting lecture]</p>

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<p>And if I can throw in my 2c worth, filling out applications while watching the Cartoon Channel does have some problems. Son spent four hours working on a 20 minute application, only to discover that he was filling out the Purdue GRADUATE School Application.</p>