Unhealthy Relationships, Version Two

Parents Forum
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<p>Calmom, thanks for that, trust me when I tell you, I don't want to be concerned with what she majors in, or how she achieves a degree. I'd much rather fill my mind space with far more interesting issues such as my own education, and continuing life goals. Unfortunately, it BECOMES an issue for me when I'm being asked to buy the Kaplan MCAT prep, which is $3,000+, and I'm looking at a gpa in freefall. </p>

<p>In any case, I have read all of your posts, and I am very grateful that everyone took the time, especially those I disagree with, as opposing opinions are very valuable. As concise as I can make it, here are my thoughts:</p>

<p>FrazzledI: Thank you for your post, I appreciate especially knowing that a 3.0 might still make med school. I also agree completely with the issue of values experimentating. This part is probably vitally necessary to the growth process. Yes, she's clearly departing from the values she was raised with - that's actually o.k. with me, because I know she'll come back to them, as nearly every healthy person does. </p>

<p>Calmom: What helped me most is your post that indicated the problems for ME. Thanks for that, it made me feel much better. I don't like people following me in cars, calling constantly, imposing gifts on me. And I'm simply not going to tolerate it anymore. Never would I tolerate such behavior from a man seeking to date ME, and I'm certainly not going to entertain it from anyone else. It's creepy, and weird. D can engage in that sort of exchange if she wishes, but that doesn't mean I have to become engaged as well. </p>

<p>Ariesathena: Thank you for all of your insight here. This issue is so far outside of my experience I couldn't imagine where to begin. I will not, however, be calling the coach, or anyone else. While the coach is very nice to me, and would be very receptive, I do think that is inappropriate, and I would simply never do it. Besides, the issue isn't what happened this weekend, it's the larger issue of an unhealthy relationship. </p>

<p>Bluealien: from a 3.6+ to just barely over a 3.0. She tells me all of her grades. Some of this may be due to the difficulty of the premed core. Disconnecting the cell would only eliminate a symptom, not the problem. </p>

<p>Soozievt: Thank you SO much, I appreciate your very thoughtful post(s). You helped me to see where to keep the focus, and that's vitally important here. </p>

<p>JYM626: Yes, it may be time for the first failure. If so, the best thing I can do is allow it to happen, and be there afterwards. </p>

<p>ASAP: Congratulations on your long and successful marriage. But I don't think the two life experiences can be fairly aligned. We live in an age where a college degree is an economic necessity, and where employers screen out resumes sub 3.0. That wasn't the case 34 years ago, or even 24 years ago. And, there isn't really any "backing off" for me to do. D comes home on break. When she does, he's on the phone, he's in the driveway, he's following the car, he's all over the cell phone bills, he's under the tree, he's in the mailbox. When invited, he doesn't leave. I feel inundated, there's just too much of him, combined with the near total absence of anyone else, particularly the people who have been in her life for years. And that certainly hasn't been the case with any of the other young men she has dated before. This young man doesn't even have any other friends. </p>

<p>Kirmum: Thanks for your insight, it helps a lot to see two sides to an issue. I've never once learned anything from anyone who agreed with me 100% of the time. </p>

<p>EmeraldKity: You still did not answer my question. When exactly might it be more appropriate for me to inquire? </p>

<p>It is my responsibility to inquire after - and react to - conditions that arise that are abnormal, and potentially destructive. This would be true even if D were 30 - or if this were another family member or even close friend. Since last April, the collective evidence tells me that there are some problems, and that those problems are connected to this relationship with Fred. I'm going to be asking some hard questions about those problems, if issues come across my radar screen, or into my sphere of influence. If this wins me the label of "controlling" or "intrusive", so be it: my radar is pretty good, and I can tell when things just aren't right. </p>

<p>My execution as a parent has been o.k. - so far. Some of you might disagree with my position, but I stand by the results. For now, I'm going to take much of the collective advice from Soozievt, Frazzled1, Calmom, Ariesathena, etc., especially the advice that focuses on (1) being supportive, and keeping the focus on education and career goals, and (2) not tolerating behaviors in my presence that I do not like, and cannot stand. I also intend to keep my message to her consistent, IF she asks. Last, I will do everything in my power to step far back from anything specifically to do with him. If she is to grasp his faults and the inappropriateness of his behavior, she must see it herself, and not through my translation. </p>

<p>Kirmum, I sure hope you're right about the team. Surely they've got my back!</p>

102

<p>As I was running my errands I was thinking about what momsdream said about maybe the daughter not wanting a gentleman right now. I had a good chuckle and must admit to a stage in my life after being the picture of responsibility and hard work that I just wanted some fun that included bad boys! Though none of my bad boys had 3 jobs or a 3.8......</p>

<p>Late, I think we all hope that this will all work out with everyone's relationship intact. My fear is that if you're not careful, you'll drive your daughter away. Daughter has the right to expect you to respect her privacy and observe appropriate boundaries.</p>

<p>As my children have grown, I have seen what another poster spoke of, they may not adopt all of your values. Or at least there will be a period in which that explore different ways of seeing things. In your case late, it is clear that you have very conservative and traditional mores. Chances of a child in this generation being a "rules" girl are slim.</p>

<p>So take some of the really good advice here. Get to know this boy well. If they are willing to spend time with his folks they'll spend time with you if you are welcoming. Don't use spy tactics. Just let your daughter know you are there for her in a non judgemental way. If there's a problem, she'll open up to you when she knows you're not judging. Best of luck!</p>

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<p>Somemom, thanks, but I would never, ever contact the coaching staff, it would be simply wrong and horribly intrusive. Worse, they might view D very negatively if I did such a thing. When the head coach calls me, I respond, but I never, ever intiate contact. BTW she is very complimentary of D, but I am never sure if her compliments are sincere, or merely political.</p>

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<p>Dropping the Fred issue - I'll weigh in on the GPA issue (and hope that a somewhat lively discussion will commence). </p>

<p>Organic chemistry is the single most important course of med school admissions. If I'm not mistaken, anything shy of a B+ at a tough school or an A- elsewhere is the death knell of med school admissions. </p>

<p>That said, she should NOT be taking orgo alongside bio and physics! Get orgo by itself, preferably supplemented by a diet of yoga, sociology, and that pesky fine arts requirement. Orgo + bio + physics = disaster in the making for almost anyone. </p>

<p>Having gone through law school admissions, which is similar to med school in its GPA focus, I'll weigh in on that. Med school is becoming increasingly GPA based - and the straight number, major aside, is quite important. Bio majors (I know that the D is hard science, not bio) have a lower admissions rate than liberal arts majors - it's entirely possible that it is due to the lower GPA that science majors invariably reel in. </p>

<p>I would NOT count on med school admissions with a 3.0+. I know too many people with low 3s coming from a top school with science majors who struggle to get into med schools. Only about half of people who apply to med school get in anywhere. While some people are able to pull it off, they are the exception, not the rule. The slide during the all-important orgo year just makes it worse. My guess (just that - please disagree if you know better) is that the people who manage to make it into med schools with low GPAs still aced orgo. </p>

<p>Jamimom has a lot to say about this - she's seen some of the difficulty of getting into med school up close and personal. Run a search for her posts. </p>

<p>Good news: there is NOTHING that says a person has to go to medical school two months, three weeks, and four days after graduating from college. If the D takes time off, it could be good for her. It's the last time she'll have to relax between now and retirement. (This is something I suggest for everyone - so many students get locked into the "top college, med/law/Ph.D. immediately afterwards, get top job, get married, start family, have 2.2 children, move to suburbs and top school district, repeat process with youngsters" thinking when they are far too young.) Enough of that rant - but anyway, the D's life is not over if she takes a year off after college. As such, no hurry on the MCAT preparation.</p>

<p>Obviously, the decision to hand over the $$ for Kaplan is yours. As with anything on these boards (just taking it out of the Fred situation), a lot of us would always suggest being really clear about what you are paying for and what you expect out of it. That's the best way to avoid fights. If you say, "I'll pay for the MCAT prep so long as you maintain a 3.4 for the next two semesters," then leave it at that. Same thing goes for those parents who are wondering if they should pay for grad school or how much to pay for college or if they should pay the kid's car insurance and cell. Might not be a bad time to also see what she expects you to pay for re: med school tuition.</p>

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<p>Aries, I totally get that. She pulled a C+ in org chem last semester. Had a B going into the final. Just in case anyone's wondering, she calls me and talks about this stuff - I don't ask. </p>

<p>She cannot take any more easy stuff - she's met all the requirements. She did tell me over break though that she might do some post-bacc work, in order to shore up for med school applications, if necessary. </p>

<p>Re MCAT, she wants to take it this spring/summer, and tells me it's critical to sit for it right after org chem. (???)</p>

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<p>latetoschool, I'm so sorry that you are going through this stress. My heart breaks for you! I wish there was a simple solution but unfortunately, unless there is physical abuse that can lead to a restraining order to keep him away from your daughter, there really is little you can do. Except keep listening to your daughter and hope she comes to her senses. And, pray. Alot.</p>

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<p>Oh gosh... that's really out of my league. </p>

<p>Best advice I can give you... have her call the school's pre-med advisor, who would know way more than you or I would about this. The C+, and I don't care if she's at Cornell or MIT, is bad news for med school. </p>

<p>My best guess is that she should (eeek, you'll hate this) drop orgo now and just sit through the class. I know a lot of people who did that (faithfully attended class daily, took notes, did the work, just didn't take the tests) and ended up doign well the second time around. If she's not doing well in orgo I, orgo II will be worse - it's very cumulative material and requires a solid foundation all the way through. She could possibly re-take orgo I next year (if the school allows it) or after graduation, then orgo II immediately afterwards. If she takes orgo II next year and audits this year, she could also audit next year's orgo I (Plan: audit orgo II so she's seen the material; re-take or audit orgo I in the fall, then take orgo II for a grade spring '06). </p>

<p>MCAT would follow that. I don't know anything about timing of sitting for the MCAT - but, if she's not doing well in orgo, I can't see the benefit of sitting for it right afterwards.</p>

<p>But see what the pre-med advisor says.</p>

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<p>Aries, I've tried to get her to slow it down, to even drop down to 12 or 14 credit hours a semester. I've told her to take her time, I don't care if she takes 5 or 6 years to graduate, but she won't do it. No way will I ever be able to get her to drop orgo and audit it. She won't do it. It's like trying to stop a speeding train. Or talk to a brick wall. </p>

<p>What she's decided to do instead is engage tutors provided by the athletic department. So she's lined up one for org chem, and one for something else (calc?). She hates calculus. I'm guessing she's thinking she might be able to pull off an A in org chem this semester, and end up with a B average in it...oh, she did get an A in the lab, but not the lecture.</p>

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<p>She has already talked to her advisors - in my opinion, they haven't given her the best possible advice. She wants to complete her B.S. in four years, and her B.A. in five years. They advised her to complete the B.S. first, then the B.A. My advice was to pursue both simultaneously, my logic being that she could balance the tougher science and org chem with the easier classes that complete the B.A. Plus, I'm pretty certain all financial aid goes away once the first bachelors is achieved. But that's not what the advisors told her to do. Their logic is based on completing one degree first and getting it out of the way, in case she gets too tired of school to complete the second. Then they told her she could work with the post bacc department to strengthen her transcript for med school.</p>

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<p>I'm out of ideas. That's really all I got. </p>

<p>Good luck to you. I dearly hope that she doesn't learn the hard way on the wrong end of too many med school rejection letters.</p>

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<p>Well, A, you know that's what's coming. There's a 4th tier med school near us - you would think it would be anyone's safety school, right? Try something like 4,000 applications for 150 seats...</p>

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<p>LTS - I'm impressed with your ability to listen to all this advice (and from strangers no less!) and take what works for you. My only other hope would be that you'd find someone to talk to (priest, counselor) who can help you keep your sanity while working through this situation as the situation changes and new issues come up.</p>

<p>I had hoped my post would resonate and give you hope that all could be well in the end, as your daughter seems very normal to me. I guess I feel the experiences are aligned because my H, like your daughter, was going along swimmingly until I (the needy one) showed up and took over his life. Talk about stalking - I actually transfered to his college to be with him ! (like Fred and his apartment next to your Ds dorm?) His grades fell apart, as we spent all our time together. We used to drive from LA to Orange County during the week, sometimes daily, during breaks so we could see each other. We were inseparable. Mom wasn't happy. Oddly enough, his parents were fine with us and didn't interfere.</p>

<p>What I didn't say was after we were married , my H took a job rigging sailboats supporting me financially while I finished college and got a teaching credential. He was 20. Believe me, my mom didn't think my H would amount to much, but she was glad I was at least able to finish my education.
It turned out that my H really need this break. He had been such an achiever all his young life, (like your D, perhaps) it felt really good to him to do something physical and support me, as well as figure out who and what he wanted to be when he grew up. He did go back to school at 23, finished undergrad in a year and a half, and received a full fellowship to a prestigious graduate program. I supported us by teaching while he finished his education and found his footing in his career. After 13 years of childless marriage (growing up together, basically), we had our daughter (who is now 20 !) and then our son. I have been home with my kids since my Ds birth, and my H has been a great "provider." My mom and I are pretty close again...she's decided my hubby is ok. ;) </p>

<p>Trust you daughter - I know you don't like this boy, (and I doubt she'll actually marry him ) but when kids deviate from the prescribed path, it's usually in the interest of self-discovery and growth. That was really what I was trying to say.</p>

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<p>LTS wrote:
[quote]
We live in an age where a college degree is an economic necessity, and where employers screen out resumes sub 3.0.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My son is 21. He does not have a college degree, having completed only 2 years at a 4 year college. He is very gainfully employed in a job he loves, which comes with a lot of responsibility - he is the director of an office of a nonprofit organization which operates in about 20 states. He has lived in 4 different cities since he started working with this org. Most of the people with equivalent titles at his work have college degrees -- but I've been to their hiring site and even the highest level jobs requiring degrees have the words "or experience" in the job title - so there's plenty of room for advancement now that he's on an inside track. This job was not hard to get - it is an organization that both hires and fires rather liberally -- basically you prove your worth within 2 weeks on the job or you are let go. He's having his W-2's mailed here so I can see exactly what he makes, and while it isn't a really high amount, it is consistent with the entry level salaries that many college grads get. Based on the experience he now has, I know that whatever happens in life he will never be employed below a managerial level ... he's just too good of a manager, with too strong of a track record, to ever bother submitting a resume for anything less.</p>

<p>He does intend to go back to college at some point, and I do think a college degree is important. But I am posting this because it is a mistake to think that a person cannot make a living without a college degree. Obviously I worried when my son decided to take time off from college, but I am not at all worried now. I can see that he has a good career ahead of him, with or without a college degree. He is good at managing things, and he is exceptionally talented at convincing people to part with their money. He very well could never go back to school, but 10 or 20 years down the line own his own company. There are all sorts of parents posting on these boards who have successful and lucrative careers in business or real estate and don't have college degrees.</p>

<p>The main thing is that life takes us all in some unusual directions. I have a law degree, but I don't use it -- I make my living right now entirely on self-taught skills, and have a job that I love doing, and gives me total flexibility and room for growth. </p>

<p>As a parent of course you want your daughter to succeed ... but part of letting go is to accept that "success" comes in many different forms. The best choice my son ever made was to drop out of college -- if he had stayed in school, he would be a senior now with a liberal arts major, probably still adrift and clueless about what he was going to do with the rest of his life. </p>

<hr>

<p>By the way, I also have a daughter who sounds a lot like yours. My d. is only in high school - age 16 - but she is stubborn, rushes headlong into stuff, takes on far more than she can reasonably be expected, won't listen to anyone's advice, and is very much an over-achiever -- but again and again a path that makes it harder rather than easier to achieve various goals. I know that if my d. was involved with a Fred-type, nothing I could say or do would influence her. All I can say is that it is ultimately your child's life - not yours. And you are living proof that it's never too late to go back to school.</p>

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<p>LTS-- I'm rooting for you and know you'll pull through this. You've done a wonderful job so far, and I have no doubt your love and support will see your daughter through whole lot worse than this.</p>

<p>You've gotten some good advice. I have none for you, but I do have an observation-- your daughter did not grow up with a daily dose of dad in her life. Many kids don't.... but the lack of "the other parent" to balance you out, help her figure out the role of a man in a relationship, develop some distance from you during the teenage years when for a lot of girls, "dad" becomes the cool parent and you become a witch seems to be playing itself out here. It may help your fear, anger, and frustration over this guy if you look at the situation with some sympathy for your daughter. She's trying to figure out boundaries, establish her own sexual identity, work to separate from you, all without an adult male role model to help her.</p>

<p>I think it would help you to run this scenario past a trusted male friend... a co-worker, a brother-in-law, someone who can be the dad for a few minutes. It is astonishing to me how my husband and I can hear the basic facts of a situation with one of our kids and come to radically different points of view. Just astonishing. I have come to trust his judgement (a lot more now with "adult" kids than I did when they were little) just because, in so many situations, he's able to be empathetic and see the kids point of view whereas I'm so reactive and judgemental.</p>

<p>My husband would hear your situation and note the following:
1) The decision to go or not to go to med school needs to be hers. You can be an advocate and cheerleader, but figuring out when to take Org, how much prep for MCAT she needs, etc. is hers alone. If this were one of my kids, my H would sit down and tell them that we are prepared to contribute X to facilitate her dream of med school; how she allocates that among test prep, an extra year post bacc credits to bolster the app, funding for a year off to do research, tutoring, or actual med school tuition is her decision to make. Assuming she's credit-worthy, we'd be happy to sit down with a bank or the med school's finaid office, and see if our co-signing the loans would get her a better rate. He would be very unemotional when he delivered this speech and would refuse to get into a discussion about the relative merits of taking MCAT prep with a low gpa.... that's her problem and that of the counselors at school who believe me, have seen it all.</p>

<p>2)He would adopt his friendly but neutral tone with Fred, as he has with all the significant others who have rotated on through the house over the years. He does not get invested in BF/GF relationships; claims he'll have enough time to enter the psychodrama once they're married. For now, the nuances of Fred's relationships with his parents, siblings, how needy he is, etc. would be of absolutely no interest to my H. The significant others get invited to dinner when appropriate; an occasional brunch or whatever; tone is pleasant and cordial. He maintains a policy of strict neutrality and is equally obnoxious to same-gender friends as to opposite gender friends if they call during dinner, harrass us (defined as more than 3 calls a day) during vacations and breaks, etc.</p>

<p>3)He keeps his POV about said BF/GF to himself, rationale being that he'd hate to drive his kids into the arms of one of their more obnoxious suitors, and would hate to eat his words at our kids 25 anniversary party when it became clear that obnoxious suitor turned into husband of the decade. He reminds me constantly (as I grind my teeth, complain, devise ways of breaking the happy couple apart) that there's no guarantee that the next suitor won't be 10 times worse.... which usually shuts me up.</p>

<p>If any of this is helpful, feel free to adapt to your situation and best of luck to all of you....</p>

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<p>ASAP - what a wonderful story you have shared. Lots of life lessons in there, for all of us.</p>

116

<p>ASAP, I sincerely appreciate your post. You and H sort of remind me of two of our closest friends, and one of D's sports mentors. To his father's extreme anguish, the young man pursued a rather useless (father's opinion) Masters in wildlife biology, and then jumped on a sailboat trip around the world. To her mother's extreme anguish, the young lady ditched school, and met the sailboat somewhere off the coast of Africa, and got pregnant by the young man. They married somewhere enroute, and eventually got off the sailboat. Somehow, within a few years, the young man acheived his DDS. Built a thriving practice that continues today. A few years later, the young woman followed with her PhD. The she founded a school for autistic children, which is fully accredited and thriving today - waiting list even. Their three children are respectively MD, PhD, and MBA. They have been happily married for over 50 years. </p>

<p>The issue with Fred is more in his personhood. There is something simply pathological here. Roots might be in his own family, I don't know. For example, just recently I learned that when his parents divorced, the father stopped all interaction with the daughter, and the mother with the son. None have seen each other for over seven years, even though they all live here in the same city (although Fred recently re-established ties with his mother, because he wanted to see his sister). This strikes me as very odd, and the other elements of his behavior are very odd. I very rarely have an extreme negative reaction to a person, and I've certainly never had such a reaction to any of D's other associations, but this one is deeply troubling to me.</p>

<p>You know how you "know" something is very wrong in your gut, but cannot articulate it intelligently? That's where I am on this. There probably isn't enough server space for me to write the posts long enough to explain why, but I am absolutely certain of my position.</p>

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<p>Let us know if there is any change after the 'team' weekend with Fred. </p>

<p>Feel for you...and believe your gut about Fred is on the money. What to do and Why she puts up with him-- those two items are still up for debate in my mind....but your descriptions of Fred seem valid enough to warrant the worry.</p>

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<p>LOL, Blossom, thanks for that!!!! Especially #3!!!! Your post really, really helps a LOT. One of my biggest problems here is - when they're new born, or two, or in pre-school, one can find all sorts of authorities and resources to figure out what to do - that and one's own maternal instincts combined get the job done.</p>

<p>It's much, much harder to be the mother to a 21 year old young woman. There isn't any Dr. Spock on this. Thank you so much for that post, it helps more than you can imagine, and actually, that's exactly where I wish to be on this.</p>

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<p>LTS- it is precisely because you are convinced that this boy is bad news that a man would most likely tell you to disengage and back off. If indeed he's got a pathological side, than your daughters teammates will be all over her telling her to dump the guy. If indeed his family relationships are as messed up as you believe, your daughter will decide at some point that hauling that burden along with her own is just too much to cope with. The more certain you are of your position, the more your daughter's father, if he were around, would be telling you to step back and give her enough space to figure it out.</p>

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<p>If they stayed under 12, I'd have a dozen more children. As it is, I'm a great whimp with two older teenage boys. My parents raised six children. I don't know how they got through it. We took turns being hell on wheels....Poor dears.</p>