Winter Break over - Daughter/Father Relationship a total disaster

Parents Forum
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<p>Fannypack,</p>

<p>Have you thought about how this whole thing must be damaging to your daughter on a long term basis, and what kind of scars she has already borne and likely to carry a very long time into her own adulthood and eventual parenthood?</p>

<p>Though I am also a parent of teenagers, and tend to empathize with the parents, in this case, I take the daughter's side. She seems like a mature, responsible young woman. Any seemingly problematic behaviors on her part seem to manifest themselves when she is confronted with the pathologies at home, mostly caused by the father. Granted, if she were a saint, she would be able to handle her father wisely, but that would asking WAY too much, right?</p>

<p>My first priority would be the daughter, because she is so young, and she actually needs support so that she can resolve these issues - otherwise, she is likely to re-enact the similar problem when she is a parent. Just like inherited genetic traits, family pathologies are also passed down to the next generation unless a timely intervention prevents that. Though your daughter may seem defiant on the surface and coping well in her life (when away from home), I bet she also carries a sense of deep seated guilt and inadequacy with regard to the bad relationship with her father. If she had been subjected to his style of fathering from the age of 10, how could you possibly avoid experiencing psychic trauma of being constantly put down and over-controlled - making your daughter aware that you think she is likely to get pregnant, steal money from the parents, and amount to nothing is a TERRIBLE emotional abuse. </p>

<p>Regardless of the origin of your husband's emotional problem, and how sympathetic we should all be of him, to your daughter, he is a toxic parent. </p>

<p>I believe your priority should not just be helping "both of them" get along, but really looking into the way your daughter's long term adjustment is going to unfold. If I were in this situation, I would have a long heart to heart with the daughter first. I would frankly, simply acknowledge her pain, and let her know that as a child, the problem with the father was not her fault or responsibility: it is ALWAYS the adult's responsibility. Perhaps just having the simple truth be acknowledged FINALLY by you would be such a huge relief and out of that relief she may find the room to accommodate her father. In order to be "magnanimous", one has to experience the generosity bestowed upon him/her first. Unless this open wound of unacknowledged pain that did not even have the luxury of being validated, she is unlikely to find a way to handle her relationship with the father in a mature, accommodating way.</p>

<p>Then, I would appeal to her sympathy as an adult. She is 18 now: it means that she can take responsibility for her role in the state of the relationship - not the past, but the present and future. She does not have to react like a wounded child. She can take charge of her relationship with her father by being the MATURE one. I would even say to her that she has all the privilege her father never had as a teenager. With privilege, comes the obligation - the obligation of the one with intact family and supportive parents to be more understanding of the inner child within the father's heart that is still traumatized. Noblisse Oblige......... I would appeal to her sense of loyalty, generosity, and maturity to start making changes and initiating the process of mending the relationship with her father.</p>

<p>Regarding your husband, as harsh as it may sound, I think the origin of your family's problem is really his unresolved psychological issues. His latest issues with your daughter is just a manifestation of his on going problem, NOT a cause. Nor are his job issues the fundamental part of the equation. Even if your daughter were perfect, he would have found something. Even if his job situation is fine, he would still have on-going issues, albeit to a much less degree. His problems are going to lurk in every corner, ready to manifest themselves whenever there is a proper trigger. He is not likely to acknowledge this easily. I suspect he would resist the idea of seeing a therapist or counselor. He mentions that he is behaving this and that way because he is afraid you and/or your daughter are going to leave him alone. Does he realize that his behavior at this rate actually may drive you and your daughter to do exactly that? Has it ever been brought to his attention that his insecurity and pathologies are tearing the family apart? Is he aware that he is actually letting his worst fear come true because he is actually making so? Or, has it been always the case that the problem between him and his daughter was portrayed to himself as her problem, meaning if only the daughter would change, the whole problem would go away?</p>

<p>I am sorry to be so blunt, but I believe at times the person who is at the root of the problem should be made to be aware of that truth, rather than coddled and protected from the necessity to confront the reality. In the long run, that's a far more sympathetic way to deal with him..... Unless he acknowledge his problem, and work at it, he may indeed drive everybody away and become a truly bitter and lonely person..... Of course, reassuring him of your devotion and love is an essential part of his own healing process.........</p>

<p>If I came across too blunt, I apologize. It's just that I do sympathize with your daughter very much. Simply because she has more than what her parents had, should she be made to shoulder the burden of her parent's unhappy childhood? Speaking of being "ungrateful", my god, if every parent goes after the children with the accusation of being ungrateful given "all we have done for you", I would ask "did you ever write a contract and get the children's signature on what they owe to you in the future? We are treating our children with generosity because that gives US pleasure, because we want to do that, not because there was a commercial contract. In fact, the children did not KNOW that they were incurring mounting debt! If we raise them well, they would in turn be generous with us in their spirit. If we are so afraid that our children won't acknowledge our generosity, well, then we should just put the money in the bank and try to get the best interest value possible. </p>

<p>I feel that I have two very fine young men as sons, and for every good will and material resource I have poured on them, they have already paid back in 1000 folds by simply being there, being part of my life, and having smiled spontaneously to me when they came through the door every day. Anything more they may do for me in the future is a pure gravy, and not to be taken for granted.</p>

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<p>hyeonjlee - couldn't have said it better.</p>

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<p>Wonderful post hyeonjlee. One thing I'll add is that I wouldn't be surprised if the daughter sees Fannypack as also being a victim of the dad's unhappiness. The scene in the dorm room with daughter repeatedly hugging mom suggests this to me. I bet DD is waiting for the break through day when she and mom can openly discuss dad's issues.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Speaking of being "ungrateful", my god, if every parent goes after the children with the accusation of being ungrateful given "all we have done for you", I would ask "did you ever write a contract and get the children's signature on what they owe to you in the future?

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<p>** I absolutely agree ! **</p>

<p>To me, the decision to bring a child into this world was mine (and the wife back then :)). My child owes me nothing. </p>

<p>Whatever the cost or burden has or will be, it's all on me. He had no say in the matter of his conception and birth, so why should he be obligated to me in any way whatsoever? It was my choice and I have always willingly done whatever I can for him. He will never have to be "grateful", therefore cannot possibly be "ungrateful". Interestingly enough, during the holiday break the beginnings of his desire to gain financial independence were evident and I assured him he can take over whenever he wants..... I'm sure the transition will eventually come.
I feel privileged and honored to have been able to raise him (as a single parent since he was 3), and could never, ever agree with the concept that children "owe" their parents anything.</p>

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<p>One thing a non-warring parent can do is provide leadership in the gratitude area. She can say OUT LOUD what she is thankful for -- for hubby's hard work, for daughter's good grades. So much of parenting teens is addressing the many failings (or warning them of potential for failure). I have found that expressing my satisfaction is like oiling machinery. Things run smoother and there can be an increase in tolerance. </p>

<p>Laughter also helps. Get tickets for the three of you to go see a comedy show -- or tell hubby and daughter that you really want all of you (plus bf) to watch that old movie that you all loved. </p>

<p>Counselors are just like auto mechanics. There are great ones, there are awful ones and there are some that can save your life. Get a recommendation -- call the campus health center and see if they recommend someone particular. Then tell DH and DD that you want things to be better and counseling is one thing to try -- so is massage, a fishing trip, or a family weekend nailing nails for Habitat for Humanity ("I cried that I had no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet.") . . . Good luck!</p>

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<p>"Then, I would appeal to her sympathy as an adult. She is 18 now: it means that she can take responsibility for her role in the state of the relationship - not the past, but the present and future. She does not have to react like a wounded child. She can take charge of her relationship with her father by being the MATURE one. I would even say to her that she has all the privilege her father never had as a teenager. With privilege, comes the obligation - the obligation of the one with intact family and supportive parents to be more understanding of the inner child within the father's heart that is still traumatized. Noblisse Oblige......... I would appeal to her sense of loyalty, generosity, and maturity to start making changes and initiating the process of mending the relationship with her father."</p>

<p>Very wise observation, and much better written than mine!</p>

<p>I also wanted to comment on the undercurrent of anxiety in your posts fannypack when you write about your family's modest circumstances relative to the affluence your daughter sees around her at her private college. Is she bothered by that or are you? I can point to both Barack and Michelle Obama--kids from modest means who were scholarship students at elite prep schools (Barack) and colleges (both of them). Being the scholarship kid does not seem to have held either of them back and it seems as though they move confidently in the circles that were created at these schools. I can tell you that the affluent kids don't care or judge your daughter's more modest background. If you can let that go or even see it as a source of pride--she's made it through hard work and ability, and you and your husband's willingness to sacrifice to give her a better life than you had--there is nothing more inspiring than families who do that and rather than shame or embarrassment about being of modest means, it can be a source of pride for all of you.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
From all I have seen on TV and real life, one pays a lot of $$ to let someone else tell them you are wrong. To change what is "wrong" with you, they give your some pills so you are incapable of caring about no nothing anymore.

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<p>I truly hope that an educated adult didn't post the above.</p>

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<p>I am not a parenting guru, but I have always believed that unless we are talking about some preternatural evilness, children are born with an instinct to please their parents. </p>

<p>Actually from a socio biological point of view, it's a survival instinct - **** off the adults who are in a position to feed you and ensure your survival, and you get tossed out of the Darwinian selection process, and your genes stop getting replicated and distributed to all corners of the universe. </p>

<p>In my dealings with my own kids, I always try to appeal to that willingness and desire to do right by the parents. When they do something considerate, I always tell them how that pleased me. When I do something that is not right (like, snapping at them because I was in a bad mood, etc), I always make a point of making a sincere and formal apology. When they do something inappropriate, I tell them it makes it difficult for me to shower good will toward them, since I am also only human. It makes them feel respected, and creates an environment where there is an unwritten high standard for proper behavior - a code of conduct to be observed by members of the family. </p>

<p>A favorite line from My Fair Lady comes to mind (Don't remember the exact wording). Eliza says to Colonel XXX something like the following:</p>

<p>**** Colonel treats me like a lady, so I am a lady with him. Professor treats me like a tramp. So, I am like a tramp with him ***********</p>

<p>This has always been my motto with regard to my dealings with my children. Do I always live up to this standard??? NOOOOOOOOOO. But I try. When I deviate, I promise to myself to get back with the program - I sin again though, very frequently- the important thing is what I try to consider to be a default. </p>

<p>In the end, I have two kids who don't take us for granted, overall are very considerate, and tell us about a lot of things going on in their life. Last few months of our S1 applying to colleges was really a bonding experience: countless evening sessions among me, my husband and him about how to position his strengths and provide context for his weakness. Endless brainstorming about his essays (He wrote, NOT us, but we critiqued). My S2 (HS sophomore) consults with me about elective course selection - he even tells me about who offered him dope and why he turned down the offer. He also tells me that he is seriously interested in at least one session of drinking bout just to see how it feels like (I managed to get an agreement from him that if he really wants to do it, he will do it at home with his father) My house is a gathering place for their friends.</p>

<p>I think Fannypack's daughter is a decent and well meaning kid. I believe her behavior in her father's presence is mostly Eliza Doolittle behaving like a tramp in the Professor's presence. </p>

<p>Fannypack, as a more sane parent, you can show your daughter that she can choose to be TRUE LADY who won't let the professor's boorish behavior define her and cause her to lose her bearing as a true lady. I honestly don't think you can somehow build up and maintain your husband as a good one in this dyad (father/daughter), and help her gain deeper understanding of the maladies of the current relationship. Honestly acknowledging your husband's weakness to your daughter, I believe, is the first step to help her be the mature one. I don't think this constitute as betrayal of your husband. Why do I say this? Because, I believe you have a better chance to help your daughter change than change your husband - AND somebody has to change to break the vicious cycle.</p>

<p>When the relationship is at least workable because one party broke that cycle, you can start working on the other party. I think your husband is a long term project, since his problems predate all the issues he has with your daughter.</p>

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<p>I like to think I bite my tongue when prudent, but I can't help interjecting this. OP, your D sounds like a resilient kid with a lot of strengths(.....except that driving license thing...hmmm...). Children have come through way worse than this without scars. She is 18, and is doing alright (.....I think... I dropped out around the second or third page) It would be nice if everyone went into therapy, and I think you should pursue it if your daughter is interested, but if that's not what happens, I would not go so far as to predict generations of damage. I love what someone posted on CC once, and must end up saying it daily. "Put your own mask on first"!</p>

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<p>I like that, whichever poster originally brought that up. I'm going to put it on my list of sayings to live by (or at least on my Facebook page). Thanks.</p>

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<p>shrinkrap,</p>

<p>Yes, kids are resilient, and yes, many kids from a worse environment turn out all right, if "turning out all right" is interpreted as not becoming an ax murder, drug addict, psycho, or homeless person. Better yet, most of them are even tax paying, productive citizens and pillars of community on the surface.</p>

<p>I would bet that people who know about the father's background would say, in spite of everything, he turned out just fine: married, middle class, holding down a job, kids doing well, etc. </p>

<p>Yet, in his private life, he is now running a risk of becoming a very bitter and lonely old man in a few years or decades with a frustrated and exhausted wife and estranged children and hardly any contact with his grandchildren. Unless some intervention is done, this is what awaits him. Unless the cycle is broken, his own children also run the risk of repeating this pattern, since they lack the experience and model of healthy and well adjusted domestic relationship between parents and children. </p>

<p>A very good friend of mine is a wonderful father. In fact, if there is a Nobel prize for good parenting, he would get it, hands down. He told me that he had a very "complicated" (read: pathological) relationship with his mother and his father was emotionally absent. As an adult he had years of psycho therapy to work out the problems and issues. His mother did not change, but he broke the cycle on his own through dedication and discipline. He frankly admits that without the therapy, there is no way he could have become the kind of parent he became with his own children. </p>

<p>Yes, counseling and therapy may not be necessary. Some people from bad environment may turn out "truly" OK inside and out without any intervention. But then, some people spontaneously recover from deadly diseases. Does it mean that we don't need to see doctors when we get sick? The intervention does not have to be counseling or therapy. It could be just long and frequent heart to heart. One way or the other, I think Fannypack needs to work with the daughter so that at least the cycle is broken not too late for the daughter.</p>

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<p>"Yet, in his private life, he is now running a risk of becoming a very bitter and lonely old man in a few years or decades with a frustrated and exhausted wife and estranged children and hardly any contact with his grandchildren. Unless some intervention is done, this is what awaits him. Unless the cycle is broken, his own children also run the risk of repeating this pattern, since they lack the experience and model of healthy and well adjusted domestic relationship between parents and children."
I totally agree with this assessment.That is why it is important to break this destructive parent-child pattern of behavior as soon as possible.
hyeonjlee, it is wonderful discover yet another wise voice here on CC! I hope you will continue to post here often!</p>

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<p>"As an adult he had years of psycho therapy to work out the problems and issues."</p>

<p>And that's what daughter can do too, when she's ready. It tends to work better that way.</p>

<p>"if "turning out all right" is interpreted as not becoming an ax murder, drug addict, psycho, or homeless person."</p>

<p>This girl does not sound like she's on that path.</p>

<p>It is hard enough for researchers to predict exactly why some people turn out good enough and some don't. I'd say it would be harder still for most posters here to do so. I know it is for me. Ideally, mom will suggest therapy, it will be covered and affordable, all family members will be interested, show up from wherever they are, and work hard,weekly or whatever, for as long as it takes. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to heap more responsibility and guilt on the OP if it doesn't work out that way.</p>

<p>And now, back to biting my tongue.</p>

<p>BTW OP; I've got openings this week. What kind of insurance do you have? I'm in N. Cal too and have been trying to figure out where your daughter might be.... hmmm</p>

<p>joking!</p>

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<p>shrinkrap,</p>

<p>I don't think any one of us here is trying to lay a guilt trip on the OP. We are all trying to help. Otherwise, why would we spend this amount of time writing long posts? Certainly NOT out of some sadistic bent. </p>

<p>I rarely give my advice on other people's private, domestic life. But, when I saw her original post, I couldn't just ignore it. The original post was framed as "father and daughter not getting along". I immediately saw a daughter who may have been made to feel like a defiant and ungrateful brat for as long as she could remember. I see many adults who carry their childhood traumas and difficulties without being aware of how they color and impact their relationship with the world as an adult. I felt that the OP's daughter could really benefit from some insight into this current malady so that she does not carry it forward with her.</p>

<p>Yes, just like my good friend, the poster's daughter may choose, as an adult, to seek help and address her issue. But then again, she may not. In fact, most adults with problems are not introspective and/or self-reflective enough to initiate counseling help, etc. My good friend is an EXCEPTION - he is an extraordinary insightful and intelligent man and had the courage to face his own demon. Most adults don' do that. </p>

<p>If your child has a broken bone, would you say to yourself "Oh, well, when she grows up, if she feels like it, she will go see a doctor? Until then, if she limps along all throughout the young adulthood, so be it. It does not kill her" You would never say this, correct? So, why shouldn't any well meaning parent not intervene as early as possible so that her daughter can blossom into the most beautiful flower ever?</p>

<p>If I went overboard and read way too much between the lines, I apologize to the OP. My intention was to help, not to denigrate. All the best and good luck to you.</p>

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<p>It has been my observation that a dramatic "breaking of the cycle" is the exception and not the rule. And when it is held out as the example, we who know our flaws and faults as parents may feel like we have fallen short. I have benefited from counseling over the years and it has helped me in some ways, but I am skeptical about its ability to take a broken person and magically turn them into a fully realized and functional personality. </p>

<p>My take on the OP and her husband is this: They are doing measurably better than their parents did. Their daughter has advantages and support that were not available to the OP or her husband, but they are functioning well enough as parents to do incrementally better than their parents did. There is every reason to believe that the OP's daughter will do the same--she's got fewer scars than her parents and will do incrementally better as well.</p>

<p>That is the human condition, and it was summed up pithily by a famous psychiatrist: you don't have to be the perfect mother, you only have to be a good enough mother. I think that applies equally to fathers.</p>