Winter Break over - Daughter/Father Relationship a total disaster

Parents Forum
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<p>
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I think Oldfort and Calmom nailed it. Reread those posts and seriously consider how to support your daughter, she's done nothing wrong except maybe falling down on respect momentarily when she returned home--something every healthy college student does.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes.</p>

<p>Your daughter needs to know that her father's behavior is not normal nor healthy. Without some counseling and support from you (the witness), she runs a much higher risk of marrying someone who treats her as her father does. I do not doubt your husband's love for his daughter but surely you do not want her to believe that this the norm.</p>

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<p>One thing to recognize is that you don't really have control over the relationship between your husband and daughter (although you can encourage improvements), but you do have some control over your relationship with her. Since she is so close, you may want to go and have a meal with her to talk over what happened and let her express her frustration with her dad (without putting him down). </p>

<p>Besides counseling (for yourself even if your husband is not willing to go), it sounds like you need to make some real life friends. Look at your interests and go beyond the community you live in to find a group of like-minded folks be for hiking, reading, hobby or even a sport. Ask the mom of one of your kid's friends for coffee or lunch. Join a health club or take a yoga or dance class. You said you were doing some volunteer work. Are there any folks you met that could become friends? You may find plenty of other women out that could use a few more friends. </p>

<p>With a better support system, you will have more outlets for your stress about this whole issue. Last year when my son came home from college for winter break, several moms I know were complaining about the hours the kids slept and how little they were home. You may find other families having issues with the returning child.</p>

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<p>You will survive this. Wish I lost instead of gained wieght with stress, sigh. Son and I have had an adversarial relationship, slowly improving. He spent his winter break holed up in his room/computer room, we had some brief (2 minute?) conversations some nights- avoidance is easier to deal with than confrontation. Counseling would help, but with your D away and H most likely unwilling that may not happen. "Tincture of time" will. So many posters have given so much good advice. </p>

<p>I remember living in the dorms instead of commuting, best decision I and your D made. I had very little spending money, even for a public school. I also had trouble with getting my driver's license- stick shift family car in HS, then no time, I once practice drove with my F and walked a block home when we clashed... My F was an alcoholic, made life at home horrible, had no money to leave...</p>

<p>A week is easy to get through. You (actually your D) need to think about her summer vacation plans. One summer college vacation was very tense here- son had no job, no school... I resented the space taking blob- he wasn't 18 and couldn't kick him out and he couldn't do things 18 year olds could (we have money but those age rules for doing things independent of parents).</p>

<p>My son is introverted, I am extroverted- explains a lot of our personality clashes- we have different modus operendi. The best thing you have done so far is to open up here on CC for support. You will not change your H so you need strategies to cope with your situation. Your D is a typical teenager, you need to engage her help in dealing with the situation when she is at home. She may be able to visit her school's resource/counseling services and find ways to deal with her at home situation. She can learn how to cope with a problem father who won't change even if he is the one with the problem. Good advice from others about expectations at home- courtesies adults use with each other.</p>

<p>You are not alone, as you can see. Your thread is helpful for the rest of us to realize we are also not alone. Hang in there and keep posting. Also feel free to PM anyone you resonate with, you may become online buddies, even e-mailing each other or just PMing for support. I also know what it is like to have no local go-to people for support.</p>

<p>You will survive this, coping strategies for everyone will help. Check your insurance policy for coverage of family/other counseling- you may find total coverage. A few sessions may help or uncover other issues that can then be dealt with.</p>

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<p>Counseling can work. But the person has to feel there is a problem and want to make changes. If there is a couple involved, both have to reach this stage.</p>

<p>From what I've read on this thread, I would suggest that the OP suggest, no, urge her daughter try to find counseling through her college or somewhere. </p>

<p>As missypie and others have posted, these things not only are hurtful/painful to the people directly involved, they perpetuate themselves when the male or female has children and repeats the parent/child war conduct with their child.</p>

<p>Very, very shortly after my S was born, I came to believe that after literally years of couple counseling in which my then wife attended, but didn't truly participate, she would never be able to get past her wounds from her parents and their toxic marriage and divorce. I went to the counselor and asked "if I no longer am willing to work on the marriage, what is best for my S?" The counselor said, leave, now, immediately. Fight for custody and/or the most massive access possible. Provide him a place of serenity and safe comfort. I did. He was three months old.</p>

<p>I could not make her get better, but I could provide an environment for my S while he was with me that did not perpetuate the parent/child anger and pain that his mom suffered. NOTHING would have made me stay and subject him to that.</p>

<p>OP's daughter doesn't have to perpetuate these issues, but OP can still be there for her daughter by urging the daughter to get counseling help. My heart goes out for that daughter.</p>

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<p>I, too, have to weigh in on the disproportionate blame in the situation. The daughter is doing what 18 year olds do - going to school, working hard, having a boyfriend. The first Christmas break is a shock to the parent-child relationship, because your offspring is never going to be a child again. You may have a great relationship, but it won't be parent-child. Remember this, and make the most of it, giving respect where it is due, and setting limits where they are needed. It will feel a little funny at first, like when your daughter used to try on clothes that seemed too big, too adult, But they do grow up - not so much physically any more, but mentally, in leaps and bounds. You have a wonderful daughter and you should be proud of her, and yourself.</p>

<p>The dad situation is something else. As you've described it, he is trying to control the daughter's sex life, casual spending, tuition, time at home, time away from home, chores done at home....this is not someone with an issue about a messy room, this is someone who feels out of his depth and is grasping at the straws he thinks he can control. It seems like his issues are very deep and counseling is the best thing out there, although it won't solve everything. It does need to start before she comes home again so that he can do some of the work that is separate from the father-daughter dynamic. Convince your husband that you are beginning a new relationship with an ADULT daughter, and it is not starting out well. If he continues with his ways, he will poison it. He can only withhold tuition for so long. After that, she is the one who gets to do the withholding - no calls, visits or time with grandchildren.</p>

<p>Good luck, and I'm sorry you are caught in the middle. Set limits and stick to them - it will save your sanity.</p>

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<p>Thank you SO much to everyone who responded! You all have given me a gift, and I am grateful.</p>

<p>I have so much information and advice here, it will take time to really digest all of it. To think of the place where I was when I first posted my plea for help and where I am at this moment seems like there is lots of mileage between those two points.</p>

<p>I've already started some changes in motion at home, with hubby. Taking responsibility for my own part in all this, I can't just sit back and do nothing - so I'm taking it all in baby steps. Things are better on my end, a bit, already.</p>

<p>As for my daughter, I saw her today very briefly. Some of the books she'd ordered for classes came to our house this week and I dropped them off today (as well as a fresh batch of homemade biscotti and a few of her favorite oranges) - she had a few things to return to me too. Besides discussing why her mini-fridge was full of mold when she returned from break, the conversation was good. She hugged me three times during the visit (when we usually only hug when saying good-bye). She is getting back into the groove of things and seems much more relaxed. Perhaps she is doing some thinking about "what went wrong" on break too. I felt it was too soon to bring it up, but we'll get around to it.</p>

<p>I am still open to any and all thoughts and suggestions, I feel a full toolbox is better than one that is only half full. But, I may need to revisit this topic again if I find things going awry again.</p>

<p>I am really SO glad I reached out here, I really have been given so much. Thank you.</p>

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<p>Fannypack,</p>

<p>Thanks for reaching out to this group! I'm glad that you took the risk. I've often been scared to reach out for help and am so happy and grateful to have found this loving online support group. I'm glad you've found us too.</p>

<p>I can relate to your husband somewhat as I had a pretty hellish childhood, dropped out of high school -- but recently went back to school to finish my degree (and will be pursuing graduate school as well).</p>

<p>I don't think your daughter is doing anything wrong. She seems to just be living a normal life. The arguments with your daughter are not the problem, they are a symptom of your husband's terrible emotional pain.</p>

<p>I hate to be blunt here, but I think your husband has some MAJOR issues with jealousy and regret and emotional pain that he has not yet resolved. The way that he is expressing his suffering is disruptive to your family, but it's the suffering that is the root problem, not the disruption. Even if he never fought with your daughter again, the pain he feels over not finishing his degree and getting to have the kind of life others are having is a problem in itself.</p>

<p>I think your husband really needs some counseling, and perhaps to make some major lifestyle changes. Perhaps he needs to go back to school to get his degree, for example. Or change his line of work. Or... well something so he can feel fulfilled and happy and no longer eaten alive by emotional pain. Saying he is "too old" is a defense against the fear that it is too late for him to achieve his dreams. </p>

<p>Encourage him to love himself by figuring out what his dreams are and to go after them. He sounds like he needs to find a way to nurture the things he loves and do something for himself. </p>

<p>It sounds like both of you have made it through some terrible times to a place of stability. He may not appreciate how far he has come, and how much strength he has to take his life where he wants it to go at this point. He needs to know that change is possible and that dreaming is not just for others.</p>

<p>I think the best thing you can do for your daughter and your husband is to empower him.</p>

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<p>RS, nice post.</p>

<p>Maybe, just maybe, that I jumped the gun here a little. Would those who are experts on counseling please explain to me what is "counseling". From all I have seen on TV and real life, one pays a lot of $$ to let someone else tell them you are wrong. To change what is "wrong" with you, they give your some pills so you are incapable of caring about no nothing anymore. </p>

<p>Let's say one person is depressed because he/she felt that he/she is poor. The counseling simply takes away more of your money and give you some pill so you don't care if you are poor or not. The end results are that your are deeper in the hole but feel good because you can not understand the reality any more.</p>

<p>Going back to RS's post. To me, it is a true compassionate analysis of the situation. The bottom line, as many have said, it is the Hubby's fault. I bet the H already knew that but he is so frustrated because he can't do nothing about it. If they are aleady getting loans to pay for D's school, how do you suggest they pay for H's school? That is on top of losing some of H's income.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, life sucks sometimes for some of us. The sooner one understands that there is nothing simple you could do about it, the sooner you can find peace with yourself.</p>

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<p>Is this the son posting or is this really Dad II posting? </p>

<p>
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life sucks sometimes for some of us

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</p>

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<p>Fannypack--you got some really good information here. I will just say that my mom came from a family that routinely kicked their kids out at 14 to support themselves. When she was in high school her parents sent her to live with a family and she worked full time as a housemaid/mother's helper while attending school full time. While she knew better with us, she kind of let us be on our own once we were in high school as she had no clue what or how to parent teens.</p>

<p>It sounds like your husband's issues are family of origin--he has no blueprint for parenting through the college years since he himself was kicked out at 17. Often those of us who come from neglectful or abusive families don't realize it at the time--it is normal for us, right? But when your own kids reach the age at which you suffered abandonment or pain it brings it up and it is really difficult.</p>

<p>Your daughter sounds like a mature and sensible girl--does she know about her dad's family? If you explained it that it is not her--that her dad may well be dealing with a lot of painful issues as watching her leave home and have opportunities brings back his own coming of age--she may well find that she can feel some empathy for him and also it gives her the tools to let her dad's hurtful comments and anger roll off her back rather than internalizing it. </p>

<p>I echo all the recommendations for counseling--if your husband is willing to go that would be wonderful, but if not don't continue to suffer by yourself. You can't change him or make him feel differently, but you can get yourself some support.</p>

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<p>I may be the lone dissenting opinion here, but I don't agree the Dad is all wrong, and the Dad must be made to understand.... and so on.
With info from the Op's post 1 and post 10 we learn the Dad can harly start ANY conversation without student getting defensive and retreating to her room. This non-driving fresh"woman" as she calls herself, all the while seems to assert herself as an adult. </p>

<p>I can't read that and think ol' Dad needs counseling. This student doesn't yet have a grasp on what a woman, or independent adult is. You want to be called independent? You want to be thought of as an adult? Don't depend on others for your transport. Don't depend on Dad for college money. Don't depend on Dad for spending money. Don't depend on Dad for <em>your room</em>. She needs to get her drivers license, and learn that not all conversations are challenges- hence no need to always be defensive. She also needs to be reminded that retreating to the -room her parents provide- is certainly not adult conduct. She needs to be told-flat out- that although she is no longer a child of 10, she is not yet an adult. Lastly, she needs to look up freshwoman. Merriam-Webster says a freshman is a first-yr student, but freshwoman is not listed in the dictionary.</p>

<p>This idea of "I'm an adult now" is often comical to those who have been through it. A parent can see logically how action A,B, and C are clearly not adult all the while a young person claims adulthood. I laugh now at how my son said "I'm a man now" yet still lived in the same room we provided since he was a toddler; counted on us to make or provide food for every meal, counted on us to provide clothing and some gas money, and expected us to help with his education in college. I have the benefit of being 51 and lived through that experience nearly 4 yrs ago. Do I expect my best friend(also 51) to be living in his parents' home? For his parents to give him lunch money? To drive him around? No, because he is an adult. If something drastic economically happened and he moved in here with my wife and I would I have to let him live here rent free, no rules, and not having a job, but wanting me to drive him around or pay for a bus so he could visit his girlfriend? It sounds preposterous when I say he's 51. It would sound equally ridiculous for any (healthy) adult. </p>

<p>Do I mean then, that it's all students' fault? Not exactly. Yes, it is her doing most of the changing, but I believe it is the natural maturation toward adulthood. Perhaps she needs a sit-down explanation of what Dad expects from a near-adult in his household. Her obligations, privileges, and behavior are expected to be different now than when she was 10. Typically, such a young person only sees that the privileges that they feel should be different.</p>

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<p>I am not in favor of making our kids feel they need to feel obligated or grateful because we support them financially while they are in college. We expect our near adult children to help out around the house and be respectful of everyone's living situation when they are home. But it doesn't give me the right to control my kids' personal and sex life. Not too good with words here, but what I would like to say is I never want to use finance to control someone's life, whether it's my kids, parents or friends. The fact the daughter is tip toeing around the house to try to stay out of the way/trouble is not a good sign. The fear of someone has so much power over you that they could take one thing that's most important to you (ability to go to college) must be very unsettling.</p>

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<p>But oldfort, you say you don't want them to feel obligated, yet you say they are expected to help around the house and be respectful of everyone's living situation. Then those are, in fact, among their obligations. Different from when they were 10.
Control a sex life? In this case I just think the Dad doesn't want to contribute to it. Far different from controlling it.</p>

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<p>I am sorry for your aggravation, fannypack. I think a lot of good advice has been posted here already. I think one thing that no one has said (forgive me if I have missed it) is that your daughter is perhaps a little out of touch with the financial sacrifice that your husband feels that he is making for her education. I may have been dense as an 18 year old, but I did not understand then what a sacrifice the seemingly little money my parents contributed to my education was for them. My dad worked almost 7 days a week, so I must have really been a dope, but it is the truth. I worked hard too, and took out loans, etc. </p>

<p>I did not get on well with the folks from the time I left for school. Really, I could not wait to leave their house, which was suffocating with rules and expectations, which included cleaning house, doing laundry, setting the table, washing dishes (but never cooking, and I still have never learned this too well). After one miserable summer after freshman year, I made sure to get summer jobs with room and board included, away from their house.</p>

<p>I know now that my mom and dad had terrible lives growing up themselves, and this of course had its toll on us kids. The worst part was that the money issues really made all the kids feel that they got less than unconditional love. This is, in my opinion, the greatest risk at hand. I know that some parents really don't care that much, but I think most really look at their kids as the most important thing. What a tragedy if the kids don't know it.</p>

<p>I know what it is like to see the other folks with unlimited "expense accounts". For me, this issue did not resolve until I felt comfortable with earning my own living, and setting my own priorities regarding spending money. Now, I frankly don't get the parents who give the kids thousands upon thousands of money for "extras". I think that the kids don't learn to be responsible or to make good financial choices, and can easily overspend their salaries once they are working. What good do you teach a child who has no income that it is ok to buy $500 shoes, $1000 handbag, and $300 jeans. I know these people and the kids, and it is unbelievable to me. Some of the "kids" are 26 and have never earned a paycheck.</p>

<p>Of course I was not so smart when I was 18. </p>

<p>Good luck to you and your family.</p>

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<p>Your not having anyone to talk to resonated with me; after a while talking in your head makes you feel like you're going to explode.<br>
Many 18 year olds do indeed have a sense of entitlement and it can be difficult to swallow. We made them the center of our universe and they don't see what our problem is. When you are unhappy, as your husband's reactions show him to be, it's harder to accept them going on with life as if it's a ball whilst not acknowledging you or your sacrifices. I get the feeling that in addition to his unhappiness about his life, your husband resents that D spent time being with friends and boyfriend and none at home being with the family or thanking him for helping with the cost of books which was a surprise gift to her at the cost of more financial sacrifices from you.</p>

<p>It does sound like your D has thought over some things now that she is back at college so she knows she had some fault in all of this or at least by hugging you over and over wants you to know she feels bad she made you unhappy.</p>

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<p>I only have one thing to add. The bf sounds ok. But, even if he isn't, there is no accounting for love, and it may be worth you and your husband to attempt to find something lovable about him. My sister had a bf in college, and my parents weren't thrilled with him. They ended up married, with two kids. Throughout the marriage, I think my parents' opinion of my brother-in-law never improved, and they grew to dislike him due to complaints by my sister. My sister died three years ago of breast cancer and my folks relationship with my brother-in-law is now completely kaput. This means they also have virtually no relationship with the two grandchildren. It kills them. I maintain communication with my brother-in-law, and try to keep up a good relationship as aunt to my niece and nephew. It means politely listening to my brother-in-law, and not telling what I think, even when I am frustrated or angry with him. In some ways, this tactic has helped me realize he is a person who actually needs sympathy. He has lost his wife and his life as he knew it. Who knew when it all this began so long ago with a college bf/gf relationship that this situation would be the one my parents face now? Keep the long perspective, find a way to let off steam and live in the moment. Good luck.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I may be the lone dissenting opinion here, but I don't agree the Dad is all wrong

[/quote]
No, you are not alone, younghoss. In these situations, no one is balmeless. Dynamics between family members are a result of the behaviors of all the family members.
We are hearing this story from a third party, and are making hypotheses based on mom's description of the behaviors of her d and her h. There are also dynamics between mom, her d and her h that are at play here. It is extremely difficult to present this information in an unbiased way. Mom's experiences, observations, feelings, opinions are equally important and valid, but will color how this story is told here, and how we respond.</p>

<p>Hopefully DD will pursue therapy at her college. There should be coounseling/therapy services available at no charge at her college/university, and she can work on how to interact with her father in ways that will be more positive and efficacious. Learning more about oneself, ones behaviors, family dynamiics, and learning healthy alternative coping styles (as, for sake of example, assertiveness, not avoidance or aggressiveness; or reshaping negative thinking, or to look with mindfulness at the current issues, not to dwell on past problems or ruminate about possible real or imagined future problems, or to address unhealthy coping behaviors such as excessive drinking, overcontrolling or abusive behaviors) can improve ones mental and medical health. </p>

<p>Many of the therapy outcome studies are unfortunately published in journals that one has to have a subscription to to read. There are some older general articles about efficacy of therapy The</a> Efficacy of Psychotherapy</p>

<p>The</a> Effectiveness of Psychotherapy: The Consumer Reports Study</p>

<p>As shrinkrap noted above, there is a difference between counseling and therapy, much like the old expression "give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime". Therapy is more of a socratic learning method. I also compare it to sailing. The patient has the sails; the therapist may hold onto the rudder to keep the patient from crashing into shore or tipping over, but the bulk of the sailing is done by the patient, who ultimately takes the rudder as well when he/she comfortably has the skills. Therapy isn't about "not caring", and medication may or may not be used as adjunctive treatment. But for persons who may be close-minded to its potential benefits, in denial about their unhealthy behaviors or distorted thinking , they will get out of it what they put into it.</p>

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<p>To help around the house and be respectful of people around you is not done out of obligation, it is just good behavior, it has nothing to do with the fact I am paying the bill . I would expect my kids to behave like that with other people, even when there is no financial involvement. </p>

<p>I pay for my D1's college tuition and whatever else I feel is appropriate, but other than her maintaining an acceptable GPA, I don't use my financial power to force her to do what I want. It builds up resentment and as soon as she's able she'll run as far away as possible.</p>

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<p>It says you are in northern CA. Are you Kaiser members? They have a great array of counseling services available at almost no cost. It can be one on one or in a classroom format. Not like television style sit on the couch stuff...very down to earth and usefule insights can be quickly obtained.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>I feel that DadII brings up a good point- many people are clueless as to what constitutes therapy.</p>

<p>I am not going to get into all the different styles but let me give you an example that might help.
From television even ;)</p>

<p>Josh Lyman on the West Wing- is a highly successful man who is in the inner circle to POTUS.
He has a therapist he sees intermittently- ( before Adam Arkin) who by asking clarifying questions and reflective listening, helps Josh to bring things to the surface from his past that is affecting his current perception.</p>

<p>I just re-viewed * Crackpots and their women* this morning.
Josh as deputy Chief of Staff, was given a card that would enable him to be in Air Force One, or in a special bunker in the event of a nuclear attack or other event.
He was disturbed to learn that his staff would not be accompanying him, or that his friends in the Presidents inner circle, did not receive this card.
This disturbed him so much, that he asked his therapist to cancel another appt. and see him- although he did not really realize how much it troubled him.
He made a slip of the tongue, mentioning his sister, who had died when he was a young child, as someone who would not be getting the protection he would receive.</p>

<p>His therapist, who had not ever learned how Lyman's sister had died, asked him to tell him. Although Josh was sure that he had told him, he tried to make it sound like it wasn't consequential- although it obviously was huge.</p>

<p>His sister had died, during a house fire, when she was babysitting him. He remembered little of the event- and hadn't ever expressed how guilty he felt to survive, but it was obvious to the audience and the therapist.</p>

<p>The therapist reminded him, that he had been a young child at the time, and he did what he was supposed to do.
This helped Josh clarify his thoughts about the " get out of jail free" card, and later was able to tell the President and Chief of Staff, that he couldn't accept the card, and that in the case of extreme threat, would rather be with his friends and family instead of in a protected area.</p>

<p>Therapy, when it works, can help us realize our truth- and become closer to the person we already are.
Josh was someone who was very loyal to his friends and family- and the therapist helped him to reconcile his thoughts with his actions.</p>