<p>It would be pretty painless for him to apply to UW in Madison (reciprocity) and Alabama (merit), for example. I would like him to have more than one choice when it is senior year “choosing time.” Minnesota is a great choice, though. Go Gophers! :)</p>
<p>OP, you may find your S changes his attitude about new situations once he lands at college and truly finds his intellectual peeps. I have heard good things about UMTC’s math/CS from another parent. UW Madison, Michigan and UIUC also have very strong math/CS if he wants to stay in the midwest. I’m in the camp of having choices, though, even if he decides UMTC is really where he wants to be. </p>
<p>My older S was a math major who headed into college with a number of post-AP math and CS courses already under his belt. We found out in the search process that LACs did not tend to have enough to keep him busy for all four years. (Before anyone shoots me down, two top-ranked math programs at LACs told S this.) All that said, his ultimate choice of college was driven by a desire to delve more deeply into the humanities; his thinking was that he knew he was a math/CS guy, and UG would be the best/only chance to pursue the humanities in greater depth. Math majors at UChicago have to take the Core – S loved it, but it kicked his butt! </p>
<p>There are times he regrets not going to MIT; there are times I am sorry we didn’t push the full ride a bit harder. Any of the three schools would have gotten him to where he is today.</p>
<p>S1 would have entered our flagship as a junior based on APs and departmental testing. His merit scholarship would not have forced him out after two years – many of his friends who took the merit $$$ there completed double and triple majors and then went on to top grad schools. </p>
<p>YMMV – I have a niece who entered a different flagship on full merit scholarship with junior year placement. Her school boots them out once they have completed all requirements. She is being very careful to make sure she doesn’t take her last requirement til fourth semester senior year since she does NOT want to graduate at 19.</p>
<p>One piece of advice that resonated with us was that kids change a lot when they get to college. They need to be some place where they can grow over the next four years. Who they are at 17/18 is NOT who they’ll be at 21/22.</p>
<p>Jumping in late…</p>
<p>IF FEAR holds your student back, followed by REGRET, I would say it’s time to look at some schools - just to look -<br>
AND if there are alums from the hs that the GC can connect your student with–to discuss what the other U/s are like, that might open start some thinking.</p>
<p>Being a top student and going to a flagship/transferring APs is a great great thing if thats where he lands.
And being open to new things / gaining self confidence is part of the away from home/college journey. </p>
<p>Good luck</p>
<p>DS would go in w Jr yr placement if he went to UMN for sure. Thanks for the heads up about being booted out after reqs are completed! I have to check into this.</p>
<p>I read this “study” UMN had about offering merit scholarships and the honors program and PSEO (MN is a PSEO state so you can go Jr and Sr yrs of HS to a college and earn credits - DS is only taking math classes for PSEO though). The “negatives” identified in the paper for PSEO mostly centered on kids coming in as freshmen w credits taking upper level classes, which cost more to run due to smaller class sizes, whereas usually the lower class students give the U most bang for buck because they are taking lower division classes which are cheaper for the U. There was some apparent unhappiness that CSE took in more honors kids in 2011 (I think that was the year?) - more than their “share”. It is supposed to be divided between schools. Education and Design didn’t get their share because CSE took a bigger piece of the honors pie. Honors costs more to run too. And of course there is the argument about merit money - more went to the CSE students that year and overall there are differing opinions about whether money should be going based on need first rather than merit. Ultimately the paper concluded that they could not resist taking those high stats CSE kids that year - they couldn’t turn kids like that away! They are trying to get their overall stats up for the U, which they believe benefits the entire UMN. They will try to make up for the overage of CSE kids from that year by taking fewer in the next few years (not good for my DS). They want to continue to do PSEO because the better HS students do PSEO and it is a way to attract them to the U. FOr now they think it is worth the sacrifice of taking kids with more credits, but agree that they do not get as much bang for their buck when kids come in taking UD classes freshman and soph yrs. </p>
<p>Anyway, your post and this paper remind me to look carefully to see if UMN will boot out after reqs are completed and if CSE honors acceptances and merit $ are being tightened.</p>
<p>I think it would be good for my DS to take a 2nd major. Math comes most easily to him, but he also likes other classes and at this age, hasn’t had much exposure to other disciplines. He may surprise himself. </p>
<p>I agree that there is huge growth during the next few years. it’s tough because now more than ever with the job prospects and huge costs of higher ed, it seems that kids are having to try to plan ahead for careers when they are in HS so they choose the “right” major and the “right” school for job-seeking after college or grad school. It feels to me at least like there is more of a job training feel to college now than in the old days when I went to college and a solid college education showed that you learned how to learn and having gotten through in good standing showed employers that you were a good trainable job prospect. Only a few lucky kids really know what they want to do for a career in HS. At least when I went to college, many kids ended up changing majors and eventually doing something career-wise that they did not think of or even know anything about when they were in HS. </p>
<p>But I believe you have to do something you like to be happy in life, so I am trying to strike that balance between studying something that may plausibly lead to a job (even if it’s not the ideal job after schooling is done) and exploring to find what you like. I guess one positive of DS going to UMN is that he could do a 2nd major bc of the credits he would come in with and so have that “luxury” of exploring other areas he may like. If UMN is one of the schools that cut you off when reqs are finished, then even more reason to explore a bit during those 4 years.</p>
<p>Is he interested in jobs and careers in finance or computers? Those are among the more common “good job” destinations of math majors (though supplemental courses in those areas as electives certainly helps).</p>
<p>Regarding certain parts of the university getting most of the more advanced high school students, the most common subject for high school students to be advanced in is math (although foreign language also if there are many heritage speakers). Math prodigies who complete high school AP calculus before senior year would then take more advanced math courses at the university while still in high school.</p>
<p>He has liked that AP Econs - said they were the only other “automatic” classes like math that he encountered. AP CS was also an easy class for him, but he has a low tolerance for frustration and got so easily annoyed when a program didn’t do what it was supposed to do b/c of some small code error. hopefully w/ maturity will come more patience. </p>
<p>Yes re advanced math students. It seems like many HS’s across the nation now have math classes beyond BC calc and the UMN itself offers an accelerated math program for middle and HS students (UMTYMP) which puts kids through the U’s Calc 3 by the end. My son did this starting in 6th grade so finished calc 3 by soph yr (they do HS math the 1st 2 yrs). He is taking a bonus “advanced topics” class this year there that they tacked on at the last minute - 15 kids in class. Then he will likely take some more math next year through PSEO. so he would definitely be in upper div math classes going in if he goes to UMN. Ironically, the UMTYMP ppl said at a parent presentation that the reason they do the program is to groom math students from a young age in hopes that they will want to attend the UMN for college and beyond. I think they get <1/2 of them going to UMN for college though (maybe about 40%?). But the nice thing about the program from the students’ perspective (eventually) is that they are taught early on how to write up problems formally with increasing demands as they go through the program. They also have them write a couple formal papers. So they come in already somewhat familiar with formal writing. Better to get tortured w/ it early on and in gentle increments until it comes more easily since most of them don’t like it!</p>
<p>I had to laugh at the “taught early to write up problems”. My kids had a great math teacher in upper elementary that probably tortured them both with correct format, showing steps, indicating clearly the answers.</p>
<p>However, in the two college math classes my oldest has taken so far (calc 2 and 3, different universities and different professors), he has received comments on his homework that he needs to write clearer. I don’t think anything will fix that!!!</p>
<p>The program that he is in now at a local LAC sometimes offers full rides to kids that use the program. But the acceptance rate by our high school’s kids seems low, probably because no 18 yo really wants to go to college literally right down the street.</p>
<p>I feel like my DS tests w/ each new math teacher to see what the threshold is for formality to see what he can get away w/. This year, the prof has super high standards (at least ac to DS - it’s all relative and perception).</p>
<p>DS asked me last year whether if he went to local U, I would check up on him or visit a lot. I swore I wouldn’t unless he is screwing up majorly - but I’d be checking up anyway no matter where he was if he was screwing up majorly. Maybe in retrospect I should have told him I would likely check up on him more since he was so close by - then he would have motivation for looking at other schools and I wouldn’t have had the problem that started this thread. Then after he looked at other schools he may like and got apps in, I could have sworn I wouldn’t check up on him any more if he went locally. Oh well - live and learn.</p>
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<p>Given how far advanced he is in math, an academically suitable school for him would have a strong math department, including at the graduate level (University of Minnesota - Twin Cities definitely qualifies here, although there are other schools that do also). He might exhaust the offerings of a smaller math department.</p>
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<p>I don’t think they will let him get away claiming to have a truly marvelous proof that is too large to fit in the margin of a book he is writing notes in.</p>
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<p>FWIW, with 51,853 students (of which 34,469 undergrads), UMN-TC is actually bigger than either Michigan (43,426 total, 27,979 undergrads) or Michigan State (48,906 total, 37,454 undergrads). And yes, students at all three of those schools do “know people” and see their friends on campus, all the time. Here in the Twin Cities metro, it’s not uncommon for a kid from a local high school to have 20-30 HS classmates in their college class, sometimes more, and that doesn’t begin to count people they knew who were a year or two ahead of them or behind them in HS, or people they meet on campus. As best I can tell, most undergrads lead a rich, full, social life that combines a mix of people they knew from HS and others they’ve met in college, and judging by the number of greetings, waves, hugs, people walking together or hanging out in small groups socializing–things you see on campus all day, every day–everyone “knows people.” My D2 homeschooled through HS, which meant as a junior and senior she took almost all her classes at UMN-TC. She’d run into people she knew from the homeschooling community on campus every day–not to mention the dozens of people she got to know through her college classes and on-campus activities. The supposed “anonymity” of a big campus is much overblown.</p>
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<p>I would generally agree with this, but UMN-Twin Cities does rolling admission, so it’s not uncommon for an applicant who gets everything in by September to have an acceptance by sometime in November–and never need to apply to another school. It’s best to have a couple of fallbacks lined up, though, in the event the UMN decision doesn’t go as expected. You may never need to apply, but you’d best be prepared to apply if need be.</p>
<p>Given tuition reciprocity with Wisconsin, it’s hard for me to understand why every UMN applicant from Minnesota doesn’t also apply to UW-Madison–another great school available at affordable in-state prices. I know there’s a big athletic rivalry and all, but for academic opportunity it seems like a no-brainer.</p>
<p>Ah, yes – your S may love math, but will he like the theoretical variety inherent in most math major programs? He may find that applied math, CS, finance, econ, biostatistics, etc. may tie better to his interests. There are so many opportunities in college that just aren’t on our kids’ horizons in a typical high school.</p>
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<p>I think this is a real concern at most LACs. We know a math whiz who is, I believe, a sophomore at UMN-TC and is now taking all graduate-level math classes, stuff that is way beyond the curriculum at even very strong LACs. He’s very happy there and feels he made the right choice because he can go as far and as fast as he wants in math with no upper bound, while still doing more typical into-level classes in other academic areas where he’s not as advanced. </p>
<p>The OP’s S sounds like the kind of kid who needs to be in one of the top math departments in the country to have appropriate curricular offerings. UMN-TC qualifies, as does UW-Madison. The others would all be reachy-for-everyone elite private universities (MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Chicago, etc.) or potentially pricey OOS publics (UC Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan). Perhaps he could look at some of these, but given his advanced math achievement and curricular needs, I’m not sure LACs are the way to go. (And I say this as the parent of two kids who are very happy at their LACs and getting outstanding educations, albeit in other fields). UMN-TC and UW-Madison sound like good fits. By the way, both UMN-TC and UW-Madison are also very strong in applied math.</p>
<p>I expressed the same concern about LAC math offerings in post #42. S was told not to bother applying at one LAC (though they said they would have loved having him), and was told at another that he’d be spending two years doing independent study. That was not the experience he wanted to have.</p>
<p>Flagship or tippy-top seems the way to go. UMTC is comfortable dealing with young, talented math students – that is a big plus. At our flagship (UMD-CP), there were profs who would mentor high school kids and students were able to take courses there in HS and earlier. S1 really benefited from his experience with one such prof. </p>
<p>Think of it this way – your son loves a school that can accommodate his gifts, and it’s affordable for you! If UMTC is his baseline standard for what he wants in college, he is in brilliant shape. He can explore other possibilities without fearing he’s on an all-or-nothing quest – and that freedom may help him to overcome his reticence about considering other places.</p>
<p>It’s great to hear about the soph math lover at UMNTC taking upper level classes. I have to get my act together and find out if there are limits to this for undergrad. Bdintonk, do you know if all the math credits have to count as undergrad credits if taken during undergrad or can then be applied toward higher degree? Clearly I have some HW to do myself to check out things like this.</p>
<p>I could well see DS ending up doing some applied math major or career. He just doesn’t have enough exposure and experience to really know what he will end up liking yet.</p>
<p>I agree that UMN campus is so large that one may or may end up randomly running into people you know from growing up locally. I believe that at least at one time that UMNTC was the largest US campus - I don’t know if that’s still true? At this point, none of the people he knows who go there are in schools or majors that would intersect much with areas DS would likely pursue.</p>
<p>If you hang back, he may get swept up in a few months with college fever from his peers.</p>
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<p>PhD programs in math may not actually have a lot of course work requirements, as the main emphasis is on research. Example from Minnesota:</p>
<p>[Requirements</a> for the Ph.D. Degree in Mathematics - math.umn.edu](<a href=“http://www.math.umn.edu/grad/phdprogrequire.html]Requirements”>http://www.math.umn.edu/grad/phdprogrequire.html)</p>
<p>But note that PhD programs in math often have a foreign language requirement of being able to read mathematical papers in languages like French, German, or Russian (or Italian at Minnesota).</p>
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<p>I think the basic rule is, no double-counting. And usually, no dual enrollment in undergrad and grad school at the same time. So if your S is enrolled as an undergrad and taking graduate-level courses that he wants to count toward his undergrad degree, he won’t be able to also count those same courses toward a graduate degree–and in any event, he wouldn’t be enrolled as a graduate student at the same time he’s enrolled as an undergrad. However, taking advanced courses as an undergrad might allow him to place out or test out of some courses that are otherwise required as part of the graduate program.</p>
<p>Ph.D. programs differ on this score. Some very much want you to spend at least two years “in residence” doing coursework, at whatever level is appropriate to your skills and accomplishments, before going on to your own original dissertation research. Others just want you to demonstrate mastery of the subject matter that is taught in their graduate-level courses, and if you can do so without taking any additional graduate-level courses, so be it, and it’s off to the races on your own research. Not my field, but my impression is math programs tend to tilt toward the latter model, perhaps because many of the best mathematicians do their best and most original work while young and they don’t want to create a lot of bureaucratic hoops that will hold back the true prodigies. But as I say, it’s not my field. You’d need to look at the requirements of the top Ph.D. programs.</p>
<p>Our young friend who is doing advanced math at UMN as an undergrad is planning to look elsewhere for grad school. If your S is truly gifted in math he will likely get similar advice. Not because there’s anything wrong with UMN’s math department; it’s stellar. But our young friend and his academic advisers believe he will have gotten most of what’s to be had from UMN’s math department by the time he graduates, and it will be time to move on to new challenges.</p>
<p>Oh, to be so young and gifted!</p>
<p>Here are the PhD requirements of another math PhD program:</p>
<p>[PhD</a> Program | Department of Mathematics at University of California Berkeley](<a href=“http://math.berkeley.edu/programs/graduate/phd-program]PhD”>PhD Program | Department of Mathematics at University of California Berkeley)</p>
<p>Note that course requirements are not that much.</p>
<p>CountingDown - THank you for the heads up PM. Unfortunately I do not have enough posts on CC to do PMs (which is why I’m posting here)</p>