Rate the Florida School

College Search & Selection
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<p>
[quote]
What i meant was that there should be no arguments that Umiami is the number 2 school in florida, though general public perception is that it is more prestigious, selective and academically focused than the other two schools. This is consensus OUTSIDE of florida, maybe IN florida you guys have a much higher opinion of UF, but from outside Umiami is most certainly perceived as the number one school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not at all. I live outside of Florida and my whole family lives in Florida. I'm also moving to Florida in the next two years. My father has his JD from UF.</p>

<p>My school sends 3+ to Miami every year. There is no doubt that these people are almost always of the party type and not the 'smart party type'. Everyone knows how difficult it is to get into UF. People have applied, but AFAIK, no one has gotten in (I didnt bother applying although I wanted to and wouldve gladly paid OOS tuition). </p>

<p>IMO, UM is more associated with parties, rich kids and football than UF is. I also think UM is nowhere near as difficult to get into as people say/think.</p>

<p>People both here in the northeast and in FL think very highly of UF.</p>

122

<p>"there is no doubt that these people are almost always of the party type and not the smart party type." Well mayby the 3 that got in from ur school. However if u look at the stats, you know Miami is not easy to get into. Far from it:</p>

<ul>
<li>40% acceptance rate</li>
<li>SAT ranges 1200 - 1370</li>
<li>Average GPA: 4.2 </li>
</ul>

<p>Partying occurs everywhere. its not just some phenomenon we are seeing at UM. The stats of admitted students at UM are identical to those at UF. again as for the 3 party goers from ur school, im sure it happens but they dont paint the overall picture of the school. I am 100% sure that UF has party Goers as well.</p>

<p>UM (which according to u is only a party school) is also ranked almost identical to UF (academically speaking). But hey, some schools (like UM and im sure UF) have a good combination of social life and academics.</p>

123

<p>Miami reports their average SAT as 1269 for FTIC kids. They don't say if that's merely accepted or enrolled.</p>

124

<p>That's the yearly average. We're sending 7 this year. They all pretty much fit the bill.</p>

125

<p>right... the Yearly Average.... most ppl generally meet the yearly averages stats. there are always around 25% of the students below the averages. thats at every school though. Florida has its fair share of students that dont even come close to the averages they post on their website. Same occurs at FSU. </p>

<p>Averages are still a pretty solid tool to compare quality of student body.
if GPA;s and SAT's are not enough, you could always use class rank:</p>

<p>UM: 67% in the top 10 percent
FSU: 26% in the top 10 percent
UF: Did not find any up to date information on class ranking...</p>

<p>My point: generally the top 10% of any high school should not be considered a total party go'er. if 68% of the student body at UM was in the top 10%, most students are not jokers. sure there is always a several bunch that are not the most talented but still, UM records the remainder of the students to be in the top 1/4. only 3% where under that range. I believe the students you mentioned fall in that category.</p>

<p>If you look at FSU, that proves a lot. the student body at FSU sounds more like the party going student body. not even a third of the students wer eint he top 10%!</p>

126

<p>No, I meant our yearly number of students to Miami is 3, but we're sending 7 this year.</p>

127

<p>Such kids don't last at FSU. Unlike a private school, public universities can be much more a meritocracy. They do not long tolerate unwillingness to do the work.</p>

128

<p>Nice absolute statement 2noles, care to back it up? No partying at FSU? OK, your creditability is taking a hit. More of a meritocracy at FSU? Lets look at one of your statements:</p>

<p>"As to FSU's overall US News ranking going from 64 (2002?) to 110 (2007) I think this has several causes, not the least of which was the hiring of a non-academic president in 2003 - a political reason"</p>

<p>A POLITICAL reason? You just implied High and Mighty FSU was above such "private" school shenanigans! Oh, and your NON-ACADEMIC president, isn't he an FSU grad? Strong case there 'noles!</p>

<p>Hey, your kids are getting a great education at FSU, just don't try and denigrate the education our children are getting at other Florida universities that happen to be ranked higher or are more selective than FSU.</p>

<p>Oh, and T.K. might have money for those "unfunded" incoming freshman if academic money for classrooms wasn't used for a football stadium</p>

129

<p>if youre including umiami and privates i would throw rollins in there too</p>

130

<p>Which statement was absolute?</p>

131

<p>By the way, when a university cites average SATs typically they choose the Fall (generally the highest semester) semester. U Miami does not say...so to assume their average reflects all applicants or enrolled students is incorrect. Likewise, universities also must say if the average shows "accepted" students or "enrolled" students.</p>

<p>Suffice to say unless they are quite specific, the averages are inflated.</p>

<p>Has U Miami started posting their Common Data Sets yet?</p>

132

<p>Yea they have been doing it since 1983.
<a href="http://www6.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/0,1770,2409-1;1552-3,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www6.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/0,1770,2409-1;1552-3,00.html&lt;/a>
read that whole article, and end of the 3rd article is for the common data set.
They only use the CDS to release the info to collegeboard. </p>

<p>Heres one of the guys in charge of doing this: it states his tasks etc..
<a href="http://www6.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/1,1770,2409-1;8684-3,00.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www6.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/1,1770,2409-1;8684-3,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

133

<p>So UM compiles a CDS...it just does not make the data "public". They just releases the data to those with a real "need to know". Chilling to think what could happen if that data fell into the wrong hands.</p>

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<p>This statement:</p>

<p>“Such kids don't last at FSU. Unlike a private school, public universities can be much more a meritocracy. They do not long tolerate unwillingness to do the work.”</p>

<p>So does FSU have a statistic for “Partying students expelled from FSU” in it’s CDS? Does the FSU Police remove you from campus if you get that 2nd underage drinking citation? Back the statement up with tangible evidence. </p>

<p>You keep twisting things around. Here is one of your favorites: </p>

<p>“The top 25% of FSU's recent freshman class is very comparable (or better, even) in size and academic quality to the entire freshman class at the University of Miami with an average SAT of 1332 and GPA of 3.97.”</p>

<p>Now this is what the FSU web site says (my italics):</p>

<p>“The top quartile of our 2006 accepted freshman class rivals any selective school in the nation with an average GPA of 3.97, and average SAT of 1340 (Critical Reading plus Math), and an average ACT composite of 30.”</p>

<p>Accepted, not enrolled. How many of these were using FSU as a safety school? Especially Bright Futures students concerned they wouldn’t get in to UF. No, I don’t know those statistics; universities closely hold their entrance surveys (a possible source) to improve their marketability. Yield stats (From the number accepted to those who enrolled) have a built in time lag, check USNWR for the latest, FSU still trails UF/UM.</p>

<p>For now, let’s just deal in what is really going on:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>72% of UF admits are top 10% in their class. Yes, some go on to Duke, Harvard and the like, but UF enrolls 35,000+. UF gets the cream of the Bright Futures crop, 90+ percent are in-state students.</p></li>
<li><p>UM realized a few years ago that they couldn’t compete with taxpayer-funded full-rides. So like an adapting predator, they changed tactics. Shalala cranked up the fund-raising and 55% of Miami’s enrolled students are out-of-state. Of admitted students, 68% are top 10% in their class from places like NY, IL, MA, OH, and CA. A whopping 50% are in the top 5% of their class. Florida has some great school districts like Seminole and Okaloosa, but do you really think a Highlands County Schools graduate is as prepared as a NY Regents curriculum grad? </p></li>
<li><p>FSU admits 53% of it’s applicants, UF 49% and UM 40%, based on 2006 statistics. In the number of enrolled freshman, FSU has less in the top 10% of their freshman class than either UF/UM. Sorry.</p></li>
<li><p>FSU can’t seem to break out of the 100s in USNWR. True, there is a lot wrong with USNWR rankings, but what is the first book students, parents and counselors look at when deciding which schools to apply to? USNWR. Especially those high achieving top of the class kids. Sorry.</p></li>
<li><p>FSU’s recent public airing of it’s budget shortfall dirty laundry and T.K. Underalls (sorry, the pun was too easy to pass up) whining about it sure doesn’t help FSU’s cause. Do you really want to send your child to a school that is cutting back when the student numbers are growing?</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Yes, Roberto, I agree, Rollins needs to be in there, too. The conventional wisdom is Small and Private over Big and Public in most cases. A lot of small privates are not very good in many measures, but Rollins is for sure not one of them. </p>

<p>Yes, rogracer, Miami is practicing Information Security better than many government agencies! What if parent2noles got a hold of it? Who knows how twisted it could get (just kidding!). Really, Miami has the info out there, you just need to find it.</p>

135

<p>So, I guess it's safe to assume that BaghDAD won’t be sending his kids to FSU anytime soon. </p>

<p>As for this quote:
"FSU’s recent public airing of it’s budget shortfall dirty laundry and T.K. Underalls (sorry, the pun was too easy to pass up) whining about it sure doesn’t help FSU’s cause. Do you really want to send your child to a school that is cutting back when the student numbers are growing?"</p>

<p>T.K.'s whining is what actually pushed Governor Crist, and FSU grad by the way, to reconsider his position on the differential tuition bill. Also, EVERY public university in Florida just announced they're cutting back because of a budget crisis. Don't fault FSU for being ahead of the pack and leading the way on this issue. </p>

<p>For some reason, BaghDAD posts are full of bitterness towards FSU. Maybe he was rejected years ago, who knows. I hear that Iraq has some good up and coming universities, maybe BaghDAD would be happier if his kids went there instead of FSU.(sorry, the pun was too easy to pass up).</p>

136

<p>Think of my "absolute" (really, that's a reach) statements as quality control on other statements that would have students dismiss a fine state university. For example, I'm still waiting for anyone to present a link to UMiami's Common Data Set. I believe everyone should be able to parse that data and make a year-to-year assessment of performance.</p>

<p>Secondly, anyone who would suggest that FSU or any university is somehow lacking in quality vis a vis UF or UMiami had better do a program by program comparison lest you have an alumnus like me call your bluff and want evidence. For example, I've said this many times - selecting a school in Florida really depends on what you want to study. Miami, as a private school, is a bit of an odd duck here as they really cannot compete with the state universities except in limited areas like their medical college. Here, Miami is likely the best med school - better than UF's.</p>

<p>In other areas, I will readily agree what FSU's strengths and weaknesses are, as well as UFs or any other Florida state school. We've seen already in this string that some UF students believed programs existed at UF that in reality do not - a testiment to a bias and lack of knowledge that should be corrected.</p>

<p>Lastly, personal attacks are really not welcome on this board. You're welcome to vigorously debate the issues at hand, but if you reach into pointed personal attacks you may find yourself quickly on another board. You'll find that evidence is more persuasive.</p>

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<p>Here's the webpage for the top 25% data: <a href="http://www.fsu.edu/highlights/students.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fsu.edu/highlights/students.html&lt;/a> Sorry you were not able to find it. I should have posted it earlier.</p>

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<p>FSU MBA - consider this information posted by Baghdad:</p>

<p>UM realized a few years ago that they couldn’t compete with taxpayer-funded full-rides. So like an adapting predator, they changed tactics. Shalala cranked up the fund-raising and 55% of Miami’s enrolled students are out-of-state. Of admitted students, 68% are top 10% in their class from places like NY, IL, MA, OH, and CA. A whopping 50% are in the top 5% of their class. Florida has some great school districts like Seminole and Okaloosa, but do you really think a Highlands County Schools graduate is as prepared as a NY Regents curriculum grad?</p>

<p>Of all the data he/she posted this one is most interesting. The reason is most UF students and parents realize that currently FSU and UF are close partners in the recently passed differential tuition law...that effectively sets UF and FSU up in a tier system in Florida. Further, it took the combined legislative caucuses of FSU and UF to get it passed and ultimately signed by Gov. Crist, plus the UF folks know that at the moment they have the lead in many academic stats, thus care little about where FSU is compared to them...at least until the Engineering situation is corrected and the FSU College of medicine matures. Then, UF probably figures that basic parity will result with FSU, which they can and have lived with given the 156+ year history of higher ed in Florida. Indeed, the biggest advocate for admitting FSU into the AAU is...UF. We are in a likely unprecedented period of close cooperation between FSU and UF. We can see what together they accomplished before - the winning of the National High Magnetic Field Lab from MIT through peer-reviewed proposals. It is the only national lab in Florida (located in the main at FSU).</p>

<p>On the other hand, the University of Miami is likely hanging on by their fingernails to what they assert is second place in Florida. We note that Miami does not publish their Common Data Set (as FSU and UF do), stats given are ambiguous thus allowing wide latitude for interpretation or presentation and really, short of the med school, what does Miami offer?</p>

<p>We know that UF and FSU have the top law school ranks in Florida and both are pretty much at parity. Both also have the Business programs pretty much locked up as well. Graduate programs that rank nationally are likewise distributed between UF and FSU, while Miami in this category is a distant third and at risk of being overtaken by other state schools. While Music and other Arts are still probably best at Florida State, competing programs at Miami don't bring in research dollars like chemistry, for example (even in chemistry Miami is still behind the publics).</p>

<p>Then - the fact that an undergraduate education at FSU or UF can be basically free compared to Miami - they cannot compete as stated above. Why would Miami care? Easy - while Miami is forced to go national for good students, that is difficult. Plus, Miami still has some 25% or more students coming from Florida, and now FSU and UF make this competition much more intense. We see that national publicity FSU recently received from Kiplinger's Best Values in Public Colleges and USA Today makes their search for students more expensive...thus they attack FSU - it's an inexpensive way to try and solidify "market share" of decent students (who can afford U Miami's tuition).</p>

<p>This explains a series of posters (academic professionals, I'd say) who push Miami pretty hard.</p>

<p>Notable at the same time is a diminishing herd of cash cows for Miami. As a private school, they need folks whose checks don't bounce, unlike the publics, which can tolerate lean fiscal periods without complete starvation. Remarkable, for example, is Miami's once vaunted football program - until NCAA probation and the threat of the dire athletic "death penalty" gives them one more at bat. Cash cow threatened. Likewise, we see that Jackson Memorial Hospital receives a large amount of taxpayer dollars...will the new FIU med school cost UMiami med dollars? Another cash cow at risk.</p>

<p>We note also that Florida State has since corrected its faculty compensation issue and the matter has lost moment for critics. Also, since faculty compensation affects directly USNews ratings and indirectly faculty satisfaction-opinion, look for some measure of improvement if not this year then the next. We also see how FSU's Wetherell is narrowing the freshman class by perhaps 15 to even 20% by Spring 2008, which again points to better rankings. Why would Miami care...simple, more expense and trouble for students in a period of diminishing dollars. They just do not need FSU to gain rank right now.</p>

<p>So I doubt your reason for the post is correct...it appears to me to be much more an academic professional with some bacon to bring home.</p>

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<p>Aside from UM's Medical School, their graduate programs are mediocre at best. This is what happens when Dr. Shalala diverts the lions share of the funding for just the Undergraduate College & Medical School. They are a two trick pony, nothing more.</p>

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<p>Miami offers muchmore than a medical school.
Before I get into that, let me begin by saying that UM, the private university that according to Noles cannot compete with the state schools, has more research funding than FSU. Its also extremely close to that of UF. I have posted this earlier. moreover, UM's research funding has doubled since last year. its funny that noles makes UM seem the inferior school to massive state school yet the smaller school attracts more research funding than FSU and more endowments than any other school in FLorida. who cares wether it attracts wealthy students or not. They have good credentials (way better than FSU students) and seem to eventually contribute large endowment funds toward the school. </p>

<p>Let me begin with the business school:
a select few in this thread love to bad mouth the individual programs at UM.
well lets look at the business school. </p>

<p>Link: <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/07/undergrad/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/07/undergrad/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Here is business weeks ranking of the school:
- UM: 47
- FSU: 77
- UF: 43</p>

<p>this is interesting as well:
- if u look at the average salaries of each school:
FSU: $39,000
UM: $44,000
UF: $42,000</p>

<p>Business week also ranks the undergrad programs by specialty:</p>

<p><a href="http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/06rankings/specialty.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/06rankings/specialty.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>UM: #2 accounting, #2 marketing, #2 macro economics, #4 calculus, #9 ethics, #9 corporate strategy</p>

<p>UF: Microeconoms #1, Macroeconomics #2</p>

<p>FSU: has no individual specialty ranked areas.</p>

<p>Looking at Grad Programs:</p>

<p>Wall Street Journal rankes the grad programs at biz schools.
They have two sets of rankings:
National Rankings and Regional Rankings.
National Rankings and Regional ranking distinction is explained in each of the following links:
National: <a href="http://www.careerjournal.com/reports/bschool06/20060920-table-national.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.careerjournal.com/reports/bschool06/20060920-table-national.html&lt;/a>
Regional: <a href="http://www.careerjournal.com/reports/bschool06/20060920-table-regional.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.careerjournal.com/reports/bschool06/20060920-table-regional.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Anyway, No florida schools are in the national rankign category which only mentions 20 schools. however in the regional category, UF ranks #11 and UM ranks #13. FSU isnt ranked. </p>

<p>That proves that FSU and UF are not the top business schools. UM also offers a good business school. better than FSU and UF in many areas. </p>

<p>LIke business school, several other programs can be mentioned:</p>

<ul>
<li>Medical school: arguably the best in Florida</li>
<li>Law school: while not the best it still has a solid program. its ranked just as good as FSU and has the highest average salaries in the state of Florida. Yes higher than UF. </li>
<li>Film School: another top program</li>
<li>Frost Music School: another top program</li>
<li>School or Marine Science in Key Biscayne</li>
</ul>

<p>All those are good at both the grad and undergrad level.
I wont go into detail into all of them as I did with the biz school cuz I would fill pages of info. I have done my research before naming them and u can research them if u want. </p>

<p>UM def offers something other than Medical school. to say such a thing is clearly an unresearched statement. Aside from offering solid programs as shown above, its ranked well overall. its ranked in the 50's while FSU is struggling to make top 100. It also has the highest endowment in Florida and the 2nd highest research funding.</p>